Effective & Advanced Vipassana/Self Inquiry Guide For Stream Entry

[ardacigin]

Hello everyone. I wanted to share with you my practice for effective meditation.

I've recently perfected how to reliably hit Stage 7+ samadhi in Culadasa's 'The Mind Illuminated' with self enquiry.

Once you are there, you'll add the insight practice of self enquiry and hopefully make significant progress towards the first stage of permanent awakening: stream entry.

I'm not a stream enterer yet but the reason I want to share this is that I've experienced temporary and VERY reliable no self insights while doing this exact method. Not just once but almost every time I sit.  This is insane. This state I consistently hit prior to self enquiry is like a low dose LSD.

How to check if you are ready for self inquiry: My method's check is visual and the room starts to lose its solid property slightly due to advanced breath concentration and clear extrospective awareness. If you experience that, it is the perfect time to start self enquiry.

 I just want to share the technique with you since I've experienced a lot of intelligent ways of practicing samatha supported self inquiry.

My Method:

1- Start the session and quickly move towards Stage 7 in Culadasa's system.

Here is how I do it.

-- First, stabilize the attention to the breath at the tip of the nose for 20-30 seconds until it stays there with little to no effort. Do this without subtle dullness and energy loss. Follow the breath with bright clarity. (Make sure you are not meditating in very warm temperatures.)

If you can't do this reliably, then you must practice more with Culadasa's system and develop sustained attentional skills. Read his book 'The mind illuminated' for details. Forget about self-inquiry before mastering this. Trust me. Samadhi developed Self inquiry is 50 times more effective than dry self-inquiry in my experience. (Although people still get enlightened without any samadhi practice. It is your choice in the end.)

I presume you can reliably attain effortless breath attention in less than 10 mins. Once the access concentration is on this level, you need one more skill to do proper adept self enquiry practice.

2- Practice Extrospective Awareness with Shinzen Young's 'Gone' Technique.

For this skill, drop the breath practice for now. This is the key part of the puzzle after mastering Culadasa's breath concentration. Once Culadasa gets you to master sustained attention, now it is time to develop adept levels of awareness. Introspective (inner) awareness is a solid choice as well (Body awareness etc.) but extrospective (outer) awareness of external sounds and visuals will be our technique here.

If you don't know, google 'Shinzen Young's Gone Technique'. We won't label anything. The mind will ONLY notice the endings of external sounds. I HIGHLY recommend a piano piece where it is slow and the individual notes can be discerned. Endings in particular. If you are not into music, do it listening to Leo. Focus on 'goneness' every time Leo utters a word. You must develop awareness to a point where you can experience this at the end of most words regardless of how fast Leo speaks.

You can label 'Gone' until you experience this and intuitively feel that you are 'access-concentration' with the sound. Also, do this technique with open eyes. Because we'll synthesize everything in the 3rd step.

3- Combine Breath Concentration with Extrospective Awareness with Visual Check. (IMPORTANT!!!!)

This is the hard work in my opinion. Any meditator can work with these skills separately. But the low dose psychedelic experience reliably comes from simultaneous practice of Culadasa's bright breath concentration and Shinzen Young's clear 'Gone' extrospective awareness. In this stage, once you combine these two skills, you'll have to check if you don't delude yourself. You'll do this with visual fluidity.

Once you think you are 'there', open your eyes, look at the center of your visual field with relaxed eyes. If you experience less visual solidity in objects while you are combining these 2 meditation skills, then you are ready for self enquiry. Remember that at this point, your breath attention is effortless and extrospective awareness of 'Gone' is very pronounced. If not, then you are not ready for self inquiry.

4- Samatha supported Self Enquiry

You are done with the bulk of the work. At this point, the mind is pliant enough to have a permanent and transient insight experiences regarding no self, impermanence and suffering. Now we facilitate the no self experience with the classic: 'Who is experiencing?' 

Pick whatever phrasing you like:

'Who am I!

'Who is looking'

'Who is breathing'

Just make sure you ask the question and bask more in silence until you feel the effects. Consciously let the self enquiry question effect your samadhi. Because if you feel zero effect in concentration and awareness, then you are not doing self enquiry. You are just using it as a mindless mantra. This is a mistake.

Everytime you ask 'Who is experiencing?', You must experience a certain inner tug in your sensory experience. This is a potential insight experience. The more you experience and go deeper like this, the insight into no self will get clearer.

-----

That is it. Do this 90-120 mins a day and you'll progress so quickly that you'll be shocked how skilled you get on a daily basis. In fact, do 2 sits a day like this. I'm standing on the shoulders of spiritual geniuses like Shinzen Young and Culadasa. It is thanks to them that I've experienced these training methods. The strategy MATTERS. 

 I'll write again when I discover a more effective method and/or attain permanent stream-entry.

Hopefully, this guide helps all of you struggling with meditation

Let me know your thoughts in the comments below.

Edited July 3, 2019 by ardacigin

[Peo]

39 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

Make sure you are not meditating in very warm temperatures.)

What is wrong with warm temperatures?

[ardacigin]

24 minutes ago, Peo said:

What is wrong with warm temperatures?

This is for easier breath training with Culadasa's method. Developing breath attention creates dullness and significant drops in energy once the breath clarity is not bright. This occurs in meditator's prior to Stage 7 since sensory clarity is not developed sufficiently.

You can combat this by meditating in colder environments where it is easier to feel the breath sensations with clarity and brightness. In warm temperatures, you can't know if the dullness is due to the air warmth or sleepiness prior to Stage 7. 

As you gain skill, you can meditate in warm environments and still feel the breath with clarity in relative to slightly colder environments fully knowing that the dullness is due to warmth rather than lack of energy.

Culadasa doesn't emphasize this point but in my experience, this is very valuable advice to beginners: Always try to meditate in slightly colder environments. This helped me A LOT in my first year with Culadasa's technique.

Open the windows to your room 20 mins before meditation. Meanwhile, you can make yourself a cup of coffee or exercise a little before starting the practice. Hope this answers your question.

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by ardacigin

[Enlightenment]

1 hour ago, ardacigin said:

First, stabilize the attention to the breath at the tip of the nose for 20-30 seconds until it stays there with little to no effort.

It seems like I'm on the edge of stage 8. My last few sits I've had 30s - 10 minutes moments of effortlessness. One thing I am not sure about is whether stage 8 practice supposed to be absolutely completely effortless or with extremely little effort because what happens to me is that I can get to access concentration, then bliss and joy arise, then I use very very little effort but if I drop it literally completely, I tend to slip into very subtle dullness within a few minutes. What do you think?

Have you had any cessations? Have you tried 5-MeO or DPT?

BTW thanks for bringing awareness about this practice to this forum.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Enlightenment

[ardacigin]

2 hours ago, Enlightenment said:

It seems like I'm on the edge of stage 8. My last few sits I've had 30s - 10 minutes moments of effortlessness. One thing I am not sure about is whether stage 8 practice supposed to be absolutely completely effortless or with extremely little effort because what happens to me is that I can get to access concentration, then bliss and joy arise, then I use very very little effort but if I drop it literally completely, I tend to slip into very subtle dullness within a few minutes. What do you think?

Have you had any cessations? Have you tried 5-MeO or DPT?

BTW thanks for bringing awareness about this practice to this forum.

Thanks. I think Culadasa is one of the most skilled vipassana teachers out there.

Stage 8 is a continuation of Stage 7. You develop the existing skills in Stage 7 and give them a boost with deeper concentration and awareness. 'Stage 7 beyond' is by definition effortless. So if you are feeling like 'a meditator efforting to follow the breath' then it is stage 7 below practice. But once the breath stays in awareness effortlessly and you can spend time exploring sight and sound space without the intrusion of thoughts, you can view yourself as Stage 7 for that period of time. 

This also means that there is less of a sense of a 'self' observing the breath as the meditator merges with the 'outside'. Try to also open your perspective to this to help you facilitate effortlessness for Stage 7.

Just like how Culadasa experienced dry and boring periods of time for 'effortlessness' in Stage 7, we also should be very consistent. In fact, I've spent months progressing from Stage 6 to 7 just because I was inconsistent with the stability of attention. I've never been stuck at a stage this long, not understanding how to proceed. 

The mind has to surmount A LOT of obstacles to reach effortlessness. So focus on effortlessness before getting to insight practice. The quality of self-inquiry changes post-effortlessness. The mind is much more pliant that way. 

Subjectively, don't worry about 'little effort' or 'no effort'. As long as you drop your intention to follow the breath and the breath is still attended effortlessly, then you are stage 7. If a thought pops up and you still maintain effortless breath awareness without letting the thought become an object of attention, then all the more evidence that you are Stage 7.

One of the key ways to understand stage 7 is all this I've talked about and the duration of the mindfulness. If you can maintain this for 40 mins straight in a session (regardless of physical pain and urges), then you are 100% stage 7. Duration matters. Just accessing this state of effortlessness for 2-3 mins won't cut it. Think of that as 'peaking' to stage 7, not really 'solidifying' in it

From what you've said,if you can accomplish 30 mins of effortlessness, then that is great. But I don't really understand the subtle dullness part. That shouldn't happen at this point. Also, there should be very little thoughts and distractions. Just keep that in mind. Probably you are getting close to effortlessness. Just make sure to deal with the dullness from the earlier stages.

Basically, think of it like this: If you slip into subtle dullness where the breath loses brightness, then you are 'peaking' to Stage 7. Continue the practice with diligence. I was really frustrated at this point as well. So I understand your experience

Come to a place where you can CONSISTENTLY achieve Stage 7 effortlessness in less than 10 mins after sitting down in a cushion. If you can do that, I'd view that as a mind ready for advanced insight practice. That means you've solidified in stage 7 and is ready for Stage 8.

At this point, feel free to do Stage 8 or go straight to the self-inquiry method I talked about here. Both are insight practices at its core.

Where I live in Turkey, 5 meo dmt and DPT are both illegal. So I can't comment on these substances. Leo and many others on this forum are much more experienced than me

But the good news is that I've experienced a temporary cessation insight experience naturally just trying these techniques I've described here a few days ago. The insight didn't stick, unfortunately. I suspect it has to do with the lack of sub-mind availability as Culadasa talks about.

Some part of me is open to no-self but not a significant portion of consensus is available at the moment of cessation. Also, I can't say with certainty if this is cessation.

I remember 4-5 seconds of all of my boundaries disappearing and then falling asleep. I woke up about 3 hours later feeling motivated to meditate. But I haven't experienced a permanent shift in consciousness. I was a little confused after waking up as well. Maybe my mind is trying to understand what the hell happened.

Since then, my meditation quality is insane. Everything is going very smooth so far. I also have a lot of energy since then.

Feel free to ask me more questions  

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by ardacigin

[Enlightenment]

@ardacigin Much appreciated thank you for this explanation! 

Now I know I still have to keep making a consistent effort.

[Leo Gura]

@ardacigin Very cool. Glad to see some folks on this forum actually doing the practices and developing their concentration skills.

This is how it's done folks! You need to do the practices if you want to be spiritual.

Pick a practice and stick with it until you get good at it. Practices must be done methodologically and consciously, not mechanically to get results.

[ardacigin]

39 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

@ardacigin Much appreciated thank you for this explanation! 

Now I know I still have to keep making a consistent effort.

Also for further advice, I've learned something very important from one of Culadasa's interview. Apparently, a matured Stage 9 meditator can do 3-4 hours long SDS sits with minimal suffering consistently hitting effortlessness for most of the sit. This also means A HUGE reduction in pain sensitivity.

Currently, I can do 2 hours SDS sits. I can maintain effortlessness for about 75-90 mins straight. But physical pain starts to intrude as a subtle distraction so my attention alternates between that for the last 30 mins. I can't imagine 1 more hour of that pain slowly building up. I barely can manage it in the last 30 mins and end it off with 2 hours as my maximum time. I don't see how 4 hours of SDS works just yet. I think that will happen as I work more towards Stage 8 and then 9.

So let's keep that in mind. It might be slow to reach stage 6. But I think these neurological changes 'post Stage 7' are no joke as well. I still don't quite understand how one can maintain effortlessness in cross-legged posture for 4 hours in SDS. I can maybe do 4 hours sitting in a chair but not cross-legged. That must require MONSTER levels of equanimity

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by ardacigin

[ardacigin]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@ardacigin Very cool. Glad to see some folks on this forum actually doing the practices and developing their concentration skills.

This is how it's done folks! You need to do the practices if you want to be spiritual.

Pick a practice and stick with it until you get good at it.

Hi Leo. You've inspired me to start all this work in the first place. I wouldn't have found Culadasa and Shinzen if it weren't for you. So thank you.

[ValiantSalvatore]

@ardacigin Are you solely meditating on a chair or do you also use a cushion ?

I want to become more flexible and set a timer in the morning to do some stretches, yet I am also curious since I meditated the vast majority of the time at the beginning of my journey on a chair. I can sit depending on the chair for a long time. I think the longest time I ever sat in meditation in a single sit was on LSD for 3-4 hours and during home pratice programms from shinzen young I usually sit in a chair, since I can sit on a cushion for 60 mins. 45 mins in SDS.

Also thank you for sharing even the people who did the zen retreat where not that serious that is quite inspiring ! I want to be able to sit in full lotus, because it get's difficult for longer sits on a chair apparently, this is what shinzen says. After 90 min my back really starts to hurt so I move a bit.

Also, since I am and decided to solely practice with shinzen youngs techniques that. A quick note:

I don't understand your technique, yet I can tell you the purpose of gone in a big picture sense, so if it happens you know this "should" have been caused by gone. Gone breaks up space and time. This is how shinzen also explains it in one video, potentially in the pdf. 

I tried self-inquiry but it was a bit to intense anyway. 

Thanks for sharing this ! Shinzen surely is amazing I can't be thankful enough or I'll cry again.


 

Edited July 3, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[ardacigin]

16 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

@ardacigin Are you solely meditating on a chair or do you also use a cushion ?

I want to become more flexible and set a timer in the morning to do some stretches, yet I am also curious since I meditated the vast majority of the time at the beginning of my journey on a chair. I can sit depending on the chair for a long time. I think the longest time I ever sat in meditation in a single sit was on LSD for 3-4 hours and during home pratice programms from shinzen young I usually sit in a chair, since I can sit on a cushion for 60 mins. 45 mins in SDS.

Also thank you for sharing even the people who did the zen retreat where not that serious that is quite inspiring ! I want to be able to sit in full lotus, because it get's difficult for longer sits on a chair apparently, this is what shinzen says. After 90 min my back really starts to hurt so I move a bit.

Also, since I am and decided to solely practice with shinzen youngs techniques that. A quick note:

I don't understand your technique, yet I can tell you the purpose of gone in a big picture sense, so if it happens you know this "should" have been caused by gone. Gone breaks up space and time. This is how shinzen also explains it in one video, potentially in the pdf. 

I tried self-inquiry but it was a bit to intense anyway. 

Thanks for sharing this ! Shinzen surely is amazing I can't be thankful enough or I'll cry again.


 

I do cross legged on my bed (without cushion) and with only a back pillow. The challenge of this is my hips are on the same height level as my legs. So that creates excruciating leg pain after 90 mins. It actually starts bothering me a little bit after 60 mins. If I elevate my hips with a cushion, I'd experience way less pain. But I don't do it because that is the practice I'm trying to master. I'm trying to figure out how to manage the pain after 90 mins and ride it all the way to 2 and half hours. 2 hours seems to be my limit. Hopefully at some point, I can ride it to 3 hours  

Don't do it sitting on a chair in my opinion unless you have a medical condition or taking it easy. Do it cross-legged and then learn to work with fainting levels of leg pain after 90 mins.

Don't do stretches unless you have a yoga practice or a medical condition. Like I said, resist the temptation to make this 2 hour SDS journey easier on yourself. Pain is a great teacher. 

I don't understand what Shinzen means by that. How is sitting on a chair harder in long SDS sits compared to lotus or cross legged? I experience the exact opposite of that. Pain is much more intense in lotus type postures. Maybe it is because Shinzen is used to the posture. I don't get masters sometimes. They are too hardcore. LOL  

 

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by ardacigin

[ValiantSalvatore]

@ardacigin He says somewhere that it's more comfortable to sit for long hours, because even for him the pain kicks in but at one point everything becomes numb and pain does not matter at this point or so, he definitely said it's easier to sit cross legged, his teachers forced him into the full lotus, that was the story behind it because it is more comfortable for longer sits.

My back starts to hurt in a chair after 1h30 or 2h. approx and about the spine on a cushion, I have a zabuton and zafu, it is easier to keep erect / maintain...the spine there.  instead of on a chair, since you rely on your body strucutre more heavily not having to use a back rest. I definitely notice that I don't have any lower back issues and I assume that is what hurts while sitting on a bed with a cushion for sometime, when you sink into it a bit, you have to balance more, at least that is how it feels with me I tried the same. After seeing leo doing it for his retreat on a couch. A couch is a bit more comfy. But I prefer zabuton and zafu with buckwheat if I googled correctly, not kapuk, kapuk is horrible imo and a low budget version. Yet, buckwheat needs to be refilled it's a bit harder and more couch like but gives more leeway and it's very comfy and still sturdy. 

I am not at all flexible I trained for 3 months in the morning, yet 15 minutes are not enough. I asked at the zen retreat for some exercises, they could not give me an exercise for how to develop flexibility. I want to do hardcore sittings, yet I have and want to train my body. My motivation now definitely has shifted, since a lot of pain is gone. 

I have a different history with pain, I have to make this smooth otherwise my brain goes poof. I tried the pain-processing algorithm from shinzen it was very effective for me I did it for 4-3 months, but switched back to choiceless awarness since my deepest experiences with meditation in a state-stages sense was with the do-nothing technique. So, I figured I'll take a something that helps me more with everyday life, so I can spam meditation techniques during the day and lables which help to stay aware, but I notice while writing a lot of the time it's cognitive not bodily focused. Since, as I said I have a different history with pain  I ,can't feel my body as much as I would want to through breath and I am not joking my cerbellum hurts, afterawhile . So.. I want to adress this also directly, but one step at a time. 

How do you deal with small LIVING things, like insects or bugs crawling on you while you do SDS lol ?

For me it is currently not as much the posture, that is hindering me but, my brain or the brainbody, the cerbellum controlls posture and body movements and sensory motor skills IIRC. so... I was wondering, I'll definitely get back to SDS more when I can sit half-lotus and full. Meanwhile I'll sit crosslegged with a cushion. I definitely recommend a cushion, it's a nice ritual imo, at one point to even get rid of on the four paths to enlightenment which includes stream entry, or if you want to be hardcore you can do it on the floor ! lol People in Nurma do that in a vipassana tradition there, they solely focus on pain lol ! That you can sit for that long in this poistion is amazing I can't do that yet and I don't think I will be able to do it, also because of my body and "health" issues.

You could ask shinzen if he could teach you the technique or he could ask the guy from the life pratice program who pratices it to teach you. I don't know he always says you can call him etc. I don't have his number lol, but in an emergency he always says you can call him. I thought about writing a mail no one ever asked for the number in the programs I took part in. But enough talking for now. I am done and will go to bed. Thanks for the post again !

Edited July 3, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[Jordan94]

Thanks again for the great posts man, same as before really inspiring and interesting

 

Which advices would you give to improve and move up the early stages of Culadasa's model ? I'm still kind of stuck between stages 2 and 4 depending on the sessions and periods, I wonder also how long it took you to move up the stages initially ?

I'm gonna put more enphasis on your meditate in slightly cold environement's advice, that seems pretty good, I kinda already knew it but still didn't use it that much, so now i'm just gonna put the aircon so it's cold when I sit

But yea if you have any other advices to move up the stages from stage 2/3 ?

[ardacigin]

2 hours ago, Jordan94 said:

Thanks again for the great posts man, same as before really inspiring and interesting

 

Which advices would you give to improve and move up the early stages of Culadasa's model ? I'm still kind of stuck between stages 2 and 4 depending on the sessions and periods, I wonder also how long it took you to move up the stages initially ?

I'm gonna put more enphasis on your meditate in slightly cold environement's advice, that seems pretty good, I kinda already knew it but still didn't use it that much, so now i'm just gonna put the aircon so it's cold when I sit

But yea if you have any other advices to move up the stages from stage 2/3 ?

I've been meditating for about 3 years now. Daily. And I've spent 2 years really only working with Culadasa's techniques. Also adding Shinzen Young's noting in there as well.  If you are stage 2 and 4, the attention is getting stabilized. You are still experiencing a lot of monkey mind and dullness I presume.

Cold environment is king for dullness. And persistence to find the breath is king for stability development. Earlier stages occured with a lot of dullness for me. I think this is normal considering that our 'ordinary' state of consciousness is actually a form of subtle dullness (the breath is never clearly perceived in non-meditators). Culadasa talks about this and you really experience the validity of this stage 5 and beyond.

It took me about 2 years of intense training to get to stage 7.

It took me about 14 months to get to stage 6. I was also moving back and forth between stages. The samadhi was not stable at all. And I've spent close to a year figuring out how to solidify in Stage 7: effortlessness. Samadhi is now stable and effortless. So 2 years in total. 

I've heard Culadasa doing the 10 stages in 1 year. I might be wrong on that. And some people say these stages can be experienced in a year.

Yeah. Maybe you can hit all 10 stages. But embodying the stages and turning them into your baseline can't happen in 1 year in my experience.  I don't see how a householder can experience that much growth in 12 months. Maybe spiritual geniuses like Buddha can do it  

It'll probably take me around 3-4 years to fully master the 10 stages. And I think that is a good time frame for anyone who is committed to the path.  Just keep practicing and don't get distracted trying to do this or that technique.

Master samadhi and then go for self-enquiry.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by ardacigin

[Leo Gura]

Obviously Culadasa is supernaturally gifted. That's the trick these masters never tell their students about. They act as though it's pure practice and skill. No, they largely coast off their supernatural concentration abilities.

[Enlightenment]

@Leo Gura Natural talent is one thing, but learning on the intuitive level how to train your mind is crucial. Some people just seem to have very good intuition on how to practice properly. I was stuck in stage 5 subtle dullness for about 10 months not making any progress, not knowing why. Then something clicked in me and I finally understood what I was doing wrong this whole time. Since then I've been making steady progress. Without experimenting I would never move past stage 5, no matter how much I would meditate.

My biggest advice for people that are stuck somewhere in stages 1-5 and don't make progress is - don't be afraid to experiment with different ways of engaging your attention, level of alertness (in fact up to stage 4/5 it's preferable to meditate in a state of subtle dullness because it's easier to calm the monkey mind), awareness, amount of effort (maybe you're under or over efforting) etc.

How much time an individual will need to progress through 10 stages will depend on his natural talent, knowing how to meditate, diligence, how long per day he sits, how many purifications he need to undergo, amount of stress and external triggers that disunify the mind. There was one guy on The Mind Illuminated sub claiming he has reached stage 10 in 6 weeks. Of course, that would be extreme but I think stage 10 is doable within a 3-month retreat or 3 -5 years of daily practice.

[ardacigin]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously Culadasa is supernaturally gifted. That's the trick these masters never tell their students about. They act as though it's pure practice and skill. No, they largely coast off their supernatural concentration abilities.

I understand your point Leo. But the notion of talent is much more pronounced in insight training rather than samadhi development.

In fact, I'd argue that these 10 stages of samatha described in this book are mostly practice and skill based. It doesn't require extraordinary talent and/or fluke luck like dry self enquiry and 'just sit' sort of approaches. 

 My mind is very conceptual. Similar to yours. That is why I'm drawn to slightly more systematic spiritual approaches.

I'm also not a naturally gifted meditator when it comes to concentration. I'm maybe slightly more talented in concentration than the average meditator.  I definitely do know some meditators who really struggle with Culadasa's breath instructions. I'm not like that. 

But that is not a talent problem in my opinion. I observe that all these people have spiritual arrogance and limiting beliefs coming from different traditions. They have this lack of willingness to learn new sets of exercise regimens.

 The biggest reason I've experienced the effortlessness is making A LOT of effort.  One's initial talent level doesn't make a significant enough difference in one's ability to access these states in samatha practice.

But I think spiritual talent matters more when it comes to consistently having insight experiences and permanent awakening experiences. Some people are MUCH more likely to have these experiences naturally (and even without any meditation background).

And I don't know why that happens  

 

 

[archi]

Speaking of time, I sense that you are comparing penises, I assume it is not important .

[ardacigin]

1 hour ago, Enlightenment said:

@Leo Gura Natural talent is one thing, but learning on the intuitive level how to train your mind is crucial. Some people just seem to have very good intuition on how to practice properly. I was stuck in stage 5 subtle dullness for about 10 months not making any progress, not knowing why. Then something clicked in me and I finally understood what I was doing wrong this whole time. Since then I've been making steady progress. Without experimenting I would never move past stage 5, no matter how much I would meditate.

My biggest advice for people that are stuck somewhere in stages 1-5 and don't make progress is - don't be afraid to experiment with different ways of engaging your attention, level of alertness (in fact up to stage 4/5 it's preferable to meditate in a state of subtle dullness because it's easier to calm the monkey mind), awareness, amount of effort (maybe you're under or over efforting) etc.

How much time an individual will need to progress through 10 stages will depend on his natural talent, knowing how to meditate, diligence, how long per day he sits, how many purifications he need to undergo, amount of stress and external triggers that disunify the mind. There was one guy on The Mind Illuminated sub claiming he has reached stage 10 in 6 weeks. Of course, that would be extreme but I think stage 10 is doable within a 3-month retreat or 3 -5 years of daily practice.

Yeah, I agree that the 10 stages can be accessed in a 3-month retreat if the meditator REALLY knows what they are doing. Also, 3-5 years of daily practice is definitely a good time frame for people who commit. 

But I don't know if I buy that 'I've accessed stage 10 in 6 weeks' business. Unless he had a semi-permanent insight realization like 'Arising and Passing Away', a beginner meditator can't go that deep, that fast.  He is either already skilled in meditation or he is mistaking the concentration in subtle dullness as stage 10 practice. 

 Maybe the single most effective way to validate these sort of claims is to ask:

'Can you meditate for 3-4 hours in SDS consistently with minimal suffering?'

For a matured Stage 10 practitioner, that must be more than doable. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by ardacigin

[ardacigin]

Also, I'm very interested in Daniel Ingram's book and the progress of insight nowadays. He has some great techniques and maps for navigating this path. I'll probably improve my current training method in a few months and add some of his insights to my practice. Definitely check him out