Psychedelics Cannot Produce Enlightenment

[winterknight]

1 minute ago, Truth Addict said:

@winterknight

Maybe we could say that experience puts intellect into question and doubt, and then intellect deconstructs itself?

Why saying it's only one way and not the other? Could it be both?

Maybe experience is indirect because it leads to intellect, and intellect is direct because it's what does the actual work.

The reason it's about intellect and not experience is that no particular experience is the issue. The point are the assumptions we've made about ourselves, which are intellectual in nature, and which intellectual introspection can deconstruct.

[Truth Addict]

@winterknight We're just going in circles here.

 

[Aakash]

@Truth Addict truth your thinking of experience and intellect from a human point of view, which is why what winter is saying is correct. The assumption is that you are a human with these features. 

However, if you really want to rap your mind around it, you have to accept that the intellect and experience is not yours alltogether. 

Intellect breaks intellect , intellect changes experience, experience changes intellect and experience changes experience. 

All are true 

[Natasha]

@Juan Cruz Giusto I've never used psychedelics myself, but do believe they can help one get awakened.

They help deactivate the sense of self, and that's what's necessary when one wants to access the no-mind/God perspective, whether done with or without them.

 

[electroBeam]

3 hours ago, winterknight said:

I've generally avoided commenting on this topic, and perhaps it's unwise of me to wade in, but fools go where angels fear to tread , and perhaps something productive will come of it. It's a mark of my respect for this forum as a gathering place for sincere seekers of truth that I am bothering to discuss this. We all know how unproductive such discussions can get.

Anyhow, I respect psychedelics, and have taken them a few times, though I'm no expert. I certainly believe they can be helpful -- for the right person -- in opening the mind up in certain ways.

However, from where I stand, the problem with believing that psychedelics can take you to Truth is that it misunderstands what Truth is.

Truth is not a place to which one can be taken. It is not a state of consciousness, no matter how amazing, mind-blowing, or infinite. It is not a samadhi, no matter how extraordinary.  Nor can any samadhi, no matter how profound, result in the realization of Truth.

These -- at best -- can be glimpses or intimations or partial awakenings, but never Truth itself.

Not even with integration and embodiment. Actually, Truth cannot be integrated and embodied. To realize Truth is to understand why that's so.

The realization of Truth -- and there is only one such thing, and in fact not even that -- is fundamentally the destruction of certain incoherent unconscious beliefs which are at the root of suffering. These beliefs are based in thinking, that is, in words. These beliefs can only be unraveled  through a clear introspective investigation of them.

That investigation happens through intellectual discernment, not through any particular experience. Words destroy words, logic destroys logic, thinking destroys thinking. No quantity or type of experience can do it, because what is investigated is something common to all experiences. It's a belief that has to be unraveled through examination of experience itself.

So it can have nothing to do with any particular experience, however cosmic, nor can it be the result of such a thing. If it did, it would then become provisional -- temporary -- limited -- and that would defeat the point of Truth.

Truth is effortless perfect peace eternally. If that isn't the case, it can't be called Truth.

The same is true for meditation practices.

let me rewrite what you wrote above, but replacing psychedelics with maharshi's self inquiry:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyhow, I respect self inquiry, and have practiced it many times, though I'm no expert. I certainly believe it can be helpful -- for the right person -- in opening the mind up in certain ways.

However, from where I stand, the problem with believing that self inquiry can take you to Truth is that it misunderstands what Truth is.

Truth is not a place to which one can meditate to. It is not a state of consciousness, no matter how amazing, mind-blowing, or infinite. It is not a samadhi, no matter how extraordinary.  Nor can any samadhi, no matter how profound, result in the realization of Truth.

These -- at best -- can be glimpses or intimations or partial awakenings, but never Truth itself.

Not even with integration and embodiment. Actually, Truth cannot be integrated and embodied. To realize Truth is to understand why that's so.

The realization of Truth -- and there is only one such thing, and in fact not even that -- is fundamentally the destruction of certain incoherent unconscious beliefs which are at the root of suffering. These beliefs are based in thinking, that is, in words. These beliefs can only be unraveled  through a sincere, spontaneous, conscious investigation of them.

That investigation happens not through any meditation technique, but through being sincerely aware of your beliefs, not through any particular experience or method. Words destroy words, logic destroys logic, thinking destroys thinking. No quantity or type of experience can do it, because what is investigated is something common to all experiences. It's a belief that has to be unraveled through sincere awareness of experience itself.

So it can have nothing to do with any particular experience, however cosmic, nor can it be the result of such a thing. If it did, it would then become provisional -- temporary -- limited -- and that would defeat the point of Truth.

Truth is effortless perfect peace eternally. If that isn't the case, it can't be called Truth.

 

[Matt8800]

41 minutes ago, winterknight said:

The reason it's about intellect and not experience is that no particular experience is the issue. The point are the assumptions we've made about ourselves, which are intellectual in nature, and which intellectual introspection can deconstruct.

@winterknight More thoughts and concepts.........and more thoughts and concepts. When it is all stripped away, there is only direct experience of the flowing present moment. Interpretations and intellectualization is the product of an ape brain. 

[winterknight]

3 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

The same is true for meditation practices.

let me rewrite what you wrote above, but replacing psychedelics with maharshi's self inquiry:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyhow, I respect self inquiry, and have practiced it many times, though I'm no expert. I certainly believe it can be helpful -- for the right person -- in opening the mind up in certain ways.

However, from where I stand, the problem with believing that self inquiry can take you to Truth is that it misunderstands what Truth is.

Truth is not a place to which one can meditate to. It is not a state of consciousness, no matter how amazing, mind-blowing, or infinite. It is not a samadhi, no matter how extraordinary.  Nor can any samadhi, no matter how profound, result in the realization of Truth.

These -- at best -- can be glimpses or intimations or partial awakenings, but never Truth itself.

Not even with integration and embodiment. Actually, Truth cannot be integrated and embodied. To realize Truth is to understand why that's so.

The realization of Truth -- and there is only one such thing, and in fact not even that -- is fundamentally the destruction of certain incoherent unconscious beliefs which are at the root of suffering. These beliefs are based in thinking, that is, in words. These beliefs can only be unraveled  through a sincere, spontaneous, conscious investigation of them.

That investigation happens not through any meditation technique, but through being sincerely aware of your beliefs, not through any particular experience or method. Words destroy words, logic destroys logic, thinking destroys thinking. No quantity or type of experience can do it, because what is investigated is something common to all experiences. It's a belief that has to be unraveled through sincere awareness of experience itself.

So it can have nothing to do with any particular experience, however cosmic, nor can it be the result of such a thing. If it did, it would then become provisional -- temporary -- limited -- and that would defeat the point of Truth.

Truth is effortless perfect peace eternally. If that isn't the case, it can't be called Truth.

 

Ha, no. Self-inquiry is not about experiences or states.

[winterknight]

4 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

@winterknight More thoughts and concepts.........and more thoughts and concepts. When it is all stripped away, there is only direct experience of the flowing present moment. Interpretations and intellectualization is the product of an ape brain. 

Well clearly then your very sentences must be such a product. 

Seekers must pursue ideas to destroy their false ideas, and the direct experience of the flowing present moment is one such idea. To believe that one escapes ideas in any way but through ideas is self-deception. 

Edited July 2, 2019 by winterknight

[Matt8800]

Just now, winterknight said:

Well clearly then your very sentences must be such a product. 

Seekers must pursue ideas to destroy their false ideas, and the direct experience of the flowing present moment is one such idea. To believe that one escape ideas in any way but through ideas is self-deception. 

Im not seeking anything. 

[Aakash]

@winterknight RIGHT BECAUSE MAHARASHI DID NOT QUESTION WHETHER THERE WERE STATES 

and hence it is not provided or catered for in his teachings. This is one assumption we have found. Let’s make up some more. 

Maharshi did not know how the mind function 

maharashi did not know what knowledge was 

maharashi did not experience the world via google

let me put it in a funny way. Maharashi was an ego, he just wasn’t conscious of it because he was too busy fighting an imaginary ego he created for himself.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Aakash

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

26 minutes ago, Natasha said:

@Juan Cruz Giusto I've never used psychedelics myself, but do believe they can help one get awakened.

They help deactivate the sense of self, and that's what's necessary when one wants to access the no-mind/God perspective, whether done with or without them.

 

Yeah, there's another misconception here. Nothing needs to do for you to become enlightenment. It's already the case. You become enlightened by becoming enlightened. No ego-death. Just the Truth of yourself. 

There are no steps. You cannot get from here to there - you just need to become conscious. 

 

[Natasha]

2 minutes ago, Juan Cruz Giusto said:

Yeah, there's another misconception here. Nothing needs to do for you to become enlightenment. It's already the case. You become enlightened by becoming enlightened. No ego-death. Just the Truth of yourself. 

There are no steps. You cannot get from here to there - you just need to become conscious. 

 

I awoke without psychedelics, so I understand your point too.

[Inliytened1]

@Juan Cruz Giusto that's wrong.  The ego is an illusion which must be stripped away for God to awaken to himself (itself).  The ego is relative and you as God are the Absolute.  Duality must collapse leaving only non-duality.   God enlightens himself.  

To say you are already enlightened means you are already Truth or God.  That's a relative definition of enlightenment.  The other definition is discovering you are God by removing the veil.

Wake up.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Inliytened1

[electroBeam]

26 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Ha, no. Self-inquiry is not about experiences or states.

self inquiry is a path. Its a path from non enlightenment to enlightenment. When you meditate, you think you are becoming more aware. I.E. your changing states. 

Yes self inquiry is not about experiences, but it is about states. It is fundamentally a path towards something. Psychedelics are also a path. Psychedelics are a type of meditation technique, where you use chemical substances + mental procedures instead of just mental procedures. 

 

I've had the realization before that meditation techniques(including self inquiry) cannot get you to the truth, because the truth(as you wrote) isn't a destination. Meditation techniques are existential placebos. Placebos for God. God doesn't need a technique to realize who he is hahahahaha. 

My point is, meditation techniques and psychedelics have both the same function. They are a dream/imagination designed to wake you up from a dream/imagination. Just like how Maharshi said that gurus are a dream that can wake you up, like how a tiger inside the dream you had last night can wake you up, even though the tiger isn't real.

Edited July 2, 2019 by electroBeam

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

@Inliytened1  You should stop repeating what Leo is saying and do the work. 

Nothing needs to be stripped, only becoming conscious is required. All that you said above is just an obstacle to enlightenment. And I admire Leo's work but he is just putting ideas in people's mind that are not beneficial for them and they just create more and more belief. 

[Inliytened1]

@Juan Cruz Giusto let's have a healthy discussion about this if you want.  Afterall I'm discussing this with myself LOL.  I talked about that - God's formed perspecive - after becoming conscious of it - before Leo did.  

I have done the work.  That's how i know.  And i experienced ego death and the dark night of the soul.

I'm not just talking out of my arse here.  

[DrewNows]

@Mikael89 nice asshole (opinion)  

[Aakash]

13 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

To me it's pretty obvious that psychedelics can't make you enlightened, the facts speak for themselves.

LOL because they’re meant to make you more enlightened than your typical enlightenment and therefore ofcourse there would be no empirical evidence. So your skepticism is working against you here pal. 

Would suggest there is an error with the collective ego of enlightened beings. Now wouldn’t that be embarrassing for them ?

Edited July 2, 2019 by Aakash

[Inliytened1]

@Mikael89 it seems obvious they elevate consciousness levels.  Whether one is ready for mysticism is whole other ballgame.

 

[DrewNows]

@Mikael89Before I ever knew about spirituality I met a dude who changed his persona, let go of nearly all his limiting beliefs through tripping. His old friends said he used to be completely introverted and shy (outcastish) and now he’s the star of his own reality, seemingly a born extrovert/leader lol

Edited July 2, 2019 by DrewNows