Psychedelics Cannot Produce Enlightenment

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

Hello Forum,

This is probably a controversial and highly unpopular opinion or hypothesis but it's an idea that's been bothering me for months now and I wanted to share it. What I'm basically saying is that psychedelics cannot produce Enlightenment. Full disclosure, I study with Peter Ralston, who happens to have my same opinion. Also, I have never tried psychedelics and my idea is to get enlightened and try them to compare the two "experiences". 

There are two schools of thought regarding enlightenment: the first one says that enlightenment can come and go until you have several that make the enlightenment stick. The school of thought that I stick to believes that enlightenment cannot come and go - there are degrees but once you have an awakening, it cannot go away since its understanding goes beyond experience. 

I have two main doubts and concerns when people tell me they had an enlightenment experience with psychedelics:

1- Psychedelics produce chemical reactions that alter your brain, thus providing an unusual "mystical" experience. The brain produces experience, BUT ENLIGHTENMENT IS NOT AN EXPERIENCE OF ANY KIND. An Enlightenment is a direct consciousness of an Absolute aspect of Reality and doesn't require any experience shift whatsoever. Enlightenment cannot be a result of a change in the brain, nothing needs to happen in the brain for you to have an enlightenment. Basically, psychedelics cannot get you there.

2- As I proposed before, Awakening cannot be forgotten. The fact that people come back to their normal state of consciousness after having their "enlightenment experience" is a huge red flag for me and it means that they had a highly unusual experience, not an awakening. If it's not permanent, it's not enlightenment. Why? Because it doesn't come and go like experiences. You are either conscious or not conscious.

If you haven't noticed, I'm claiming that Leo never had a true Awakening. Sure, you can have insights into the Subtle or Casual Realm (Ken Wilber Model), which can or cannot be true. I obviously have to do more research and define what these insights mean at the metaphysical level but in my worldview, they cannot be awakening experiences. 

Not saying that psychedelics cannot have a meaningful impact on one's life, there are studies that suggest just that. I'm just saying to put tools in the proper place. Do the work, sign up for some Intensives and go for the truth.

PD: Please don't burn me at the stake.

[Leo Gura]

This is just false.

Psychedelics are not merely "an experience", they can take you to the Absolute.

Just because enlightenment may not require an experience shift does not entail that an experience shift cannot lead to an enlightenment. Psychedelics do not merely change one's experience, they radically elevate one's degree of consciousness -- which is the whole key to this work. Psychedelics put you into an instantaneous samadhi state. From this state one can contemplate and realize all sorts of things, including one's true nature or various facets of the Absolute.

The reason you're making this mistake is that you're trying to understand psychedelics in terms of some traditional spiritual paradigm like Buddhism, Zen, or Vedanta, which tend to discount state changes -- but psychedelics are a totally different path so it is inappropriate to judge it from those other paradigms.

Psychedelics can take you to levels of understanding and awakening which are simply impossible otherwise, or else possible but extremely rare and only for exceptionally gifted practitioners.

It is correct that you will not be able to permanently lock in a psychedelic peak state 24/7. But that is an improper expectation to begin with.

Psychedelics, when used properly, can absolutely take you to the highest, most Absolute Truth. Of course the real trick is integrating it and embodying, which requires a lot of additional work.

Psychedelic insights and realizations square up perfectly with those of Buddhism, Zen, Vedanta, yoga, Christianity, Islam, and any other serious mystical tradition.

Shunyata, Brahman, The Self, no-self, ego-death, Allah, God, nonduality, Shiva, Buddha, nirvana, rigpa, samadhi, Mu, Infinity, The Void, Nothingness, The Dharmakaya, the godhead, union, Absolute Consciousness, satchitanadna, Truth, Love, kundalini awakening, Nibbana, formlessness, etc. -- all of this and more you can realize on psychedelics.

[Anton_Pierre]

@Juan Cruz Giusto Psychedelic research is important, but we are not holding this forum correctly to support people on their path to enlightenment. Stop saying one thing is bad and another is good. Maybe one thing is direct and the other is more gradual. Maybe certain psychedelics should be forbidden. Maybe if someone isn't in a place in their life to afford to go on a retreat to take a psychedelic, that shows that they shouldn't take psychedelics. Maybe having foundation spirituality is important. Maybe people jumping into the middle of the ocean with no guide is a bad idea. 

[OBEler]

another one who doesnt talk from experience, just repeat what his guru says. lol. What value has your post? This topic was already discussed in other early topics, so no need to open an extra one

[Anton_Pierre]

@OBEler Don't disrespect the guru path.

[Inliytened1]

@Juan Cruz Giusto i won't comment on pyschedelics since my awakenings happened without - but it is obvious to me without even taking them ever that they raise consciousness levels.

That said..here we go again with the permanent enlightenment debate.  Basically you do die as the ego and come back different.  But it is a cumulative amount of awakenings (many) that lead to a state of non-dual awareness that is always there in the background.

This can happen with or without psychedelics.  It is about raising consciousness high enough to have mystical experiences/non-dual states or awakenings in which you become the Absolute and conscious of those Absolute Truths contained within.

 

[Consilience]

Real talk, if you’ve never tried psychedelics, how could you possibly know or have this opinion? One of the cornerstones of this work is radical openmindedness.

[Peo]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is correct that you will not be able to permanently lock in a psychedelic peak state 24/7. But that is an improper expectation to begin with.

So there are cons with psychedelics compered to traditional spiritual pratice

[Anton_Pierre]

@Peo There's pros and cons to each. 

[Matt8800]

38 minutes ago, Juan Cruz Giusto said:

Hello Forum,

This is probably a controversial and highly unpopular opinion or hypothesis but it's an idea that's been bothering me for months now and I wanted to share it. What I'm basically saying is that psychedelics cannot produce Enlightenment. Full disclosure, I study with Peter Ralston, who happens to have my same opinion. Also, I have never tried psychedelics and my idea is to get enlightened and try them to compare the two "experiences". 

There are two schools of thought regarding enlightenment: the first one says that enlightenment can come and go until you have several that make the enlightenment stick. The school of thought that I stick to believes that enlightenment cannot come and go - there are degrees but once you have an awakening, it cannot go away since its understanding goes beyond experience. 

I have two main doubts and concerns when people tell me they had an enlightenment experience with psychedelics:

1- Psychedelics produce chemical reactions that alter your brain, thus providing an unusual "mystical" experience. The brain produces experience, BUT ENLIGHTENMENT IS NOT AN EXPERIENCE OF ANY KIND. An Enlightenment is a direct consciousness of an Absolute aspect of Reality and doesn't require any experience shift whatsoever. Enlightenment cannot be a result of a change in the brain, nothing needs to happen in the brain for you to have an enlightenment. Basically, psychedelics cannot get you there.

2- As I proposed before, Awakening cannot be forgotten. The fact that people come back to their normal state of consciousness after having their "enlightenment experience" is a huge red flag for me and it means that they had a highly unusual experience, not an awakening. If it's not permanent, it's not enlightenment. Why? Because it doesn't come and go like experiences. You are either conscious or not conscious.

If you haven't noticed, I'm claiming that Leo never had a true Awakening. Sure, you can have insights into the Subtle or Casual Realm (Ken Wilber Model), which can or cannot be true. I obviously have to do more research and define what these insights mean at the metaphysical level but in my worldview, they cannot be awakening experiences. 

Not saying that psychedelics cannot have a meaningful impact on one's life, there are studies that suggest just that. I'm just saying to put tools in the proper place. Do the work, sign up for some Intensives and go for the truth.

PD: Please don't burn me at the stake.

@Juan Cruz Giusto If you think psychedelics are just an experience, you clearly dont understand them. 

I had an awakening 3.5 years ago from the first time I tried DMT. I was not a meditator up to that point. I met my spirit guide and it told me I need to start meditating every day, along with a lot of other instructions on how to change my life. I have meditated every day since and my life is radically different. My awakening not only was never forgotten but it gained power as time went on.

My direct experience proves your unsubstantiated assumptions, as stated above, are false.

 

[SerpaeTetra]

I tend to agree with most of the people replying here, but playing devils advocate for a second...   How do people who have had an awakening moment through psychedelics know its the same as one who had their awakening moment through a more traditional method, since once can't communicate the experience?  

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, SerpaeTetra said:

How do people who have had an awakening moment through psychedelics know its the same as one who had their awakening moment through a more traditional method, since once can't communicate the experience?

Because it aligns perfectly with everything the classic spiritual traditions teach.

You think that is an accident?

[Leo Gura]

58 minutes ago, Peo said:

So there are cons with psychedelics compered to traditional spiritual pratice

Psychedelics have many dangers.

But traditional spiritual practice is not free of dangers either.

[winterknight]

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is just false.

Psychedelics are not merely "an experience", they can take you to the Absolute.

Just because enlightenment may not require an experience shift does not entail that an experience shift cannot lead to an enlightenment. Psychedelics do not merely change one's experience, they radically elevate one's degree of consciousness -- which is the whole key to this work. Psychedelics put you into an instantaneous samadhi state. From this state one can contemplate and realize all sorts of things, including one's true nature or various facets of the Absolute.

The reason you're making this mistake is that you're trying to understand psychedelics in terms of some traditional spiritual paradigm like Buddhism, Zen, or Vedanta, which tend to discount state changes -- but psychedelics are a totally different path so it is inappropriate to judge it from those other paradigms.

Psychedelics can take you to levels of understanding and awakening which are simply impossible otherwise, or else possible but extremely rare and only for exceptionally gifted practitioners.

It is correct that you will not be able to permanently lock in a psychedelic peak state 24/7. But that is an improper expectation to begin with.

Psychedelics, when used properly, can absolutely take you to the highest, most Absolute Truth. Of course the real trick is integrating it and embodying, which requires a lot of additional work.

Psychedelic insights and realizations square up perfectly with those of Buddhism, Zen, Vedanta, yoga, Christianity, Islam, and any other serious mystical tradition.

Shunyata, Brahman, The Self, no-self, ego-death, Allah, God, nonduality, Shiva, Buddha, nirvana, rigpa, samadhi, Mu, Infinity, The Void, Nothingness, The Dharmakaya, the godhead, union, Absolute Consciousness, satchitanadna, Truth, Love, kundalini awakening, Nibbana, etc. -- all of this and more you can realize on psychedelics.

I've generally avoided commenting on this topic, and perhaps it's unwise of me to wade in, but fools go where angels fear to tread , and perhaps something productive will come of it. It's a mark of my respect for this forum as a gathering place for sincere seekers of truth that I am bothering to discuss this. We all know how unproductive such discussions can get.

Anyhow, I respect psychedelics, and have taken them a few times, though I'm no expert. I certainly believe they can be helpful -- for the right person -- in opening the mind up in certain ways.

However, from where I stand, the problem with believing that psychedelics can take you to Truth is that it misunderstands what Truth is.

Truth is not a place to which one can be taken. It is not a state of consciousness, no matter how amazing, mind-blowing, or infinite. It is not a samadhi, no matter how extraordinary.  Nor can any samadhi, no matter how profound, result in the realization of Truth.

These -- at best -- can be glimpses or intimations or partial awakenings, but never Truth itself.

Not even with integration and embodiment. Actually, Truth cannot be integrated and embodied. To realize Truth is to understand why that's so.

The realization of Truth -- and there is only one such thing, and in fact not even that -- is fundamentally the destruction of certain incoherent unconscious beliefs which are at the root of suffering. These beliefs are based in thinking, that is, in words. These beliefs can only be unraveled  through a clear introspective investigation of them.

That investigation happens through intellectual discernment, not through any particular experience. Words destroy words, logic destroys logic, thinking destroys thinking. No quantity or type of experience can do it, because what is investigated is something common to all experiences. It's a belief that has to be unraveled through examination of experience itself.

So it can have nothing to do with any particular experience, however cosmic, nor can it be the result of such a thing. If it did, it would then become provisional -- temporary -- limited -- and that would defeat the point of Truth.

Truth is effortless perfect peace eternally. If that isn't the case, it can't be called Truth.

[Peo]

8 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Truth is effortless perfect peace eternally

Are you talking about the eternal now or in other words the pressent moment?

[Nahm]

@winterknight DId you awaken, and then try psychedelics, or did you try them prior to awakening? I know it’s a dualistic hindsight inquiry, but I hope you can be bothered to answer. ?

?

[SerpaeTetra]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Because it aligns perfectly with everything the classic spiritual traditions teach.

 

That seems like the rational thought.

Edited July 1, 2019 by SerpaeTetra

[Shadowraix]

Psychedelics can't achieve permanent nondual consciousness but it can help you. 

Go have an ego death experience and get back to us. 

@winterknight One has to come full circle. Paradoxes run deep. 

[Jack River]

Welcome to the wonderful world of pure imagination, dudes?

Psychedelic experiences have there place and are as imaginary as any other means to explore reality. To say that an experience of intellectual investigation, self enquiry, meditation, yoga is useful and psychedelics are not is a lil bit silly.?

 

[Nahm]

@Jack River Hi! Thanks.