A Broad Perspective about Guru, Lineage, Liberation(and psychedelics)

[Preetom]

There was an interesting exchange between Garuda and Leo in another thread about potency and contrast between guru path and psychedelic path. But they both seemed kinda rigid on their own understanding (oh the almighty paradigm lock!). For Leo, 5 meo or DPT is the ultimate guru and no other thing, people, books, energy is even close to it. Lets see if we can present a logical overview of it.

Ultimately, there is but only one guru or god, and that is one's own Self. And enlightenment ONLY dawns upon by the grace of that Guru or Self. Whether its Being through meditation/self-inquiry/yoga or it is nonverbal, nondual therapy through 5 meo(as martin ball often calls it), enlightenment only dawns upon through that direct transmission of grace or satsang from that supreme Guru/God alone. No other action, object, knowledge, a chain of cause can facilitate liberation. No entity with its own effort gets there.

But alas! Due to our shortsightedness we always tend to impose reality on the unreal. Love is result of happiness. Wherever there is happiness, love follows. Our Self is Bliss itself and thats why our most loved thing is our own selves, of course in a deluded way. Through any activity, relationship, substance or mind states that we seem to gain happiness, it is not the 'thing' that is the source of happiness. Rather, those things temporarily deactivate our delusion/ignorance and thus we get brief respite of our Self(the only source of happiness), depending on the potency of those things.

5 meo did it for Leo. It takes him to his real Self, the spring of happiness. Thats why for him, 5 meo is more lovable than his wealth or house. Compared to 5 meo, the potency of all other things in his life is peanuts. I am not personally targeting Leo but only trying to make a point.

Similarly, those who get enlightened by an external guru(seemingly), that guru becomes the most loved thing in their life.

But in both cases, reality is superimposed over the unreal. Both 5 meo and the flesh guru are but only vehicles. The only real Guru is one's Self. These vehicles merely open oneself to the grace of the Self. Money, sex, activities, acquisition, substances, books, knowledge, relationships etc are all vehicles but with tremendous variation in potency.

"As a man is, so he sees"

If one sees oneself as a form, everything else including the universe will appear to be objective, physical matter just like him. If one is Self, all is Self.

As long as one regards oneself as a form, one needs to rely on another potent form to take him beyond. Because one is still not liberated, an external guru or a substance or a practice is necessary. But for 'someone' Self-established like Ramana Maharshi all these vehicles are same, or there is no vehicle but only the Self.

To illustrate this point, when people tried to figure out how Ramana got enlightened; that narrative that Ramana is a person who one day somehow got enlightened; Maharshi played along that narrative and always told that it is the holy mountain Arunachala which was his guru and all the goodies came from the grace of this mountain.

But because we see ourselves as bodies, we see Ramana as a body as well. But Ramana Maharshi is verily the Self and his own body is last thing he would ever consider as him. For Ramana the supreme Self; a box of gold or 5 meo or a catpoop are all the same Self.

So ultimately a deity/external guru/lineage/activity/spiritual practices/knowledge/substances whatever it is, is absolutely crucial as long as we regard ourselves as a body and form. The potency of these things will vary depending on one's traits and tendencies.

But unfortunately we lose the big picture and end up imposing supremacy over these insentient objects. I mean we confused fellas, not the Self.

Now comes the topic of potency. A 5 meo trip changes one knowingly or unknowingly, one is never the same afterwards. Same thing with a legit guru! A self realized guru is a living embodiment of the Self. Just by living close to them without even any verbal exchange, people tend to change from inside out.

I'd make a humble request to @Leo Gura to not make contradictory, unfruitful statements. He is a public figure and lots of people significantly shape their worldviews through him. When Leo argues and makes statements along the line of "I have reached the highest realizations in all of mankind, 5 meo is the only highest deal and the rest is bullshit, 40 years zen master is a fool compared to my insights" this isn't helping anyone's growth but only creating more pernicious confusions and contradictions.

First of all, its impossible to know which sage knew what. And more importantly when Leo tries to articulate his highest insights, even he is at a loss of appropriate words and often remarks "there is no way to express this stuff in any way, it goes that deep". Almost all of his audience are modern, highly educated and openminded folks and yet all of that psychedelic insights fall on mostly deaf ears. It only truly makes sense if one is at Leo's being level simultaneously.

Now imagine where the sages of the past were. Surrounded by stage purple and blue people with extremely narrow knowledge graph, you expect the real sages to spill ALL THE BEANS  as the highest Absolute Truth? When its impossible to logically, coherrently talk about it in the first place? And YET, they left the clues as best as it could be done. The sages didn't leave the clues to proclaim them as the highest beings on earth and disparaging the rest as deluded pigs. They left them only for the best interest of the seekers as the great spiritual teachers they were. As you see/present yourself as a spiritual teacher, thats my 2 cents right there.

Peace out ?

Edited June 28, 2019 by Preetom

[mandyjw]

It goes far beyond a flesh guru or psychedelics. There are many, many strange ways in which life can teach you, or rather, in which you can appear as an external teacher or tool of some kind to yourself. 

Understanding calls for radical open-mindedness. 

[Preetom]

21 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

It goes far beyond a flesh guru or psychedelics. There are many, many strange ways in which life can teach you, or rather, in which you can appear as an external teacher or tool of some kind to yourself. 

Understanding calls for radical open-mindedness. 

Yes indeed 

All of it are vehicles 

[Truth Addict]

That's still way far from what Leo is trying to communicate.

You are all still operating from the realm of duality and otherness, while he's always stressing the importance of one's subjective experience.

It's not really about 5-MeO or Ramana or anything else. It's all about you. It always was. It starts with you and ends with you. Stop looking for answers outwardly, and start looking inwardly. That's what he's saying, but good luck with trying to communicate tier two insights with a tier one person (Garuda).

You can never be free while having a guru. The ultimate God is no-God.

[Preetom]

37 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

That's still way far from what Leo is trying to communicate.

You are all still operating from the realm of duality and otherness, while he's always stressing the importance of one's subjective experience.

It's not really about 5-MeO or Ramana or anything else. It's all about you. It always was. It starts with you and ends with you. Stop looking for answers outwardly, and start looking inwardly. That's what he's saying, but good luck with trying to communicate tier two insights with a tier one person (Garuda).

You can never be free while having a guru. The ultimate God is no-God.

Garuda is definitely tier 4 ?

I mean the mythical bird