Vedanta Thread Shouldn't Have Been Locked

[bmcnicho]

I generally believe that moderation is necessary and that over 90% of locked posts are pretty low quality.  Up until now I've disagreed with people complaining about the moderators, however, I believe this particular thread warrants a defense.

Vedanta is a highly respectable spiritual tradition, one of the more direct in my opinion.  The creator of the thread, @Preetom, clearly has a differing perspective from Leo.  Although, agree or disagree, he laid out his ideas in a well thought out way. 

Personally, about 20 comments down, I asked a clarifying question and received a high quality response.  He interacted similarly with several other commentors.

The post did involve over a dozen people and 187 comments, so I'm not defending everything that was said.  People do tend to get bogged down in technical details.  In fact, I made a post awhile back saying that spirituality is made to sound too complex.

However, Vedanta is a rich, nuanced tradition, and I believe a variety of perspectives were being respectfully discussed.  I personally learned a lot from reading through it, as various Vedantic teachings were cited that I was unfamilar with.  It was also a good example of stage yellow in action, with differing interpretations being contrasted.

If the main point is that people should stop endlessly speculating on the forum and go do the actual work, then I couldn't agree more!  However, why have a spirituality discussion forum if you don't want people discussing spirituality?

Edited June 27, 2019 by bmcnicho

[Leo Gura]

It wasn't a discussion of Vedanta, it was framed as a nonduality war and devolved into that.

Threads which split hairs over unspeakable truths are not helpful, they just get folks riled up and defensive as folks talk past one another.

5 blind men and the elephant syndrome.

It's literally a debate about nothing.

[Preetom]

@bmcnicho

Its alright, let it go. Glad that you(and some others) got something out of it.

I guess this is kinda inevitable because whenever you present something here on your own and try your best to interpret it in your own style, there are inevitably gonna be people who will creep in to superimpose their own doctrines and beliefs over it. This tendency isnt new to this forum so I wasn't that shocked or hurt that the vedanta thread was locked. In fact I am surprised it even got to stay alive for few days lol

Go check out winternight's featured thread. You'll see the same pattern there as well. Over 50% of posts and exchanges there are utter junk, basically people superimposing their own shit on winternight. But thank god that thread wasnt locked. So its always up to you what to pick and what to leave.

Take care

Edited June 27, 2019 by Preetom

[Jkris]

@Preetom @Leo GuraPreetom a beautiful thread which helped me to clear my doubts.Let go and keep rocking ??????

Finally the forum is reduced to 5Meo.

So fly to mexico take Bufo.???

 

 

 

[Preetom]

1 hour ago, Jkris said:

@Preetom @Leo GuraPreetom a beautiful thread which helped me to clear my doubts.Let go and keep rocking ??????

Finally the forum is reduced to 5Meo.

So fly to mexico take Bufo.???

its alright. Roaming in this forum made me realize very eye opening things about understanding and conviction.

There are people well versed in direct self inquiry path, there are people well versed in the scenic routes and understanding of karma theories etc. Basically what they invested most time to figure out and understand.

For Leo it could be 5 meo dmt. Somehow along the way he had to admit it to himself "this is it!"

This is why you can see why there is/was no solitary spiritual teaching or communion within people, ever. They are all fundamentally talking about the one truth, about the ONE shared Being; and yet when it is talked about, thousands of doctrines, beliefs, sanghas and traditions come about.

Its shocking to see that it only happens in the domain of spiritually. You wont find a chemistry forum which refutes the periodic table or a physics forum which refuses to acknowledge Newton's work. 

Why is this case? Because spirituality is the 'final' knowledge and ones own life is literally hinged upon it. The situation is really twisted. Its like the head of the police is appointed to chase down and catch the most notorious criminal of the country and guess what? That police head IS that criminal himself, so fathom the dilemma of the whole situation.

Just like I will never leave 'my' body and completely inhabit 'your' body because that would be death for me. Similarly I wont relinquish 'my' insights, beliefs, dogma, understanding, morality to completely inhabit yours. Because thats death to me.

Its shocking to see that whereas all other fields of knowledge are being more and more unified due to upgrade in technology and global communication, the field of spirituality remains ever scattered. Even the greatest of sages were unable to reconcile this contradiction, in fact most times their own teachings became the weapons of discrimination.

So yeah, the contradictions and differences are endless where the destination is supposed to be the same.

You now know the whats going on, you know the mechanism of bondage and how to be free, if you are convinced about it then you are free to walk the path 

??

Edited June 27, 2019 by Preetom

[Preetom]

And Leo's usual policy of "dont talk about 5 meo unless you've had it like 50 times" is kinda absurd. So basically one has to keep on taking it and come to same conclusion as Leo or else he'll just reject it out of the window.

How is that any different than saying, "dont dare talking about islam unless you've been a hardcore follower in that circle for 40 years who experienced all the pros and cons himself. Otherwise just shove your opinions up your butt and stay silent".

I hope Leo comes up with better tactics and mechanisms to talk about this stuff if he is really planning to chart out this psychedelic route as a ''spiritual teacher''.

The thing I love most about vedanta is that it never imposes a new doctrine or a set of herculean qualifications like going to some other time, place or take the help of something outside upon one. It simply lays out the fundamental theory and encourages any doubt to be resolved. Then it directly points out to one's own immediate experience and goes on a very logical and precise philosophical inquiry to cut off as much falsehood as possible, so that the truth shines clearly after that discrimination. 

If you get it then and there, cool. If not, better luck next time. The recognition is immediate and it does so by talking about very fundamental daily mundane experiences of everyone like the 3 states of waking, dreaming and sleeping or the sheaths of body-personality or the nature of I etc.

If the recognition is there and one is convinced, then they will provide some strategy or skillful means to be established in that new mode of being. And that might take some time depending on the different traits of people.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Preetom

[Inliytened1]

Indeed it is also amazing to see that a teaching that is a thousand years old nailed the essence of reality.

Its amazing.

But we must remember it is still a teaching -not Truth or the Absolute itself.  It presents Truth in its own relative way.   

This can only be discovered by becoming Truth itself - then one can see how all such teachings ultimately point to Truth.

So it is a map to the territory.  There are many different flavors of maps that can point you to the same territory.  (Well, not very many at all actually) and notice i said point.  To get to the territory you must become it.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Inliytened1

[Preetom]

5 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

@Inliytened1 You're pointing out the obvious, which should be clear to everyone already..

But yea.

Who in the right mind takes vedanta or any doctrine as THE TRUTH?

Even vedanta doesn't instruct to believe this stuff without brutal inquiry.

I guess vedanta sounds so logically coherent that some people feel the need to lash out against it fearing that it might eventually become THE TRUTH!

OH no, what will happen to my precious pet theories then?

 

 

[RendHeaven]

4 hours ago, Preetom said:

And Leo's usual policy of "dont talk about 5 meo unless you've had it like 50 times" is kinda absurd. So basically one has to keep on taking it and come to same conclusion as Leo or else he'll just reject it out of the window.

How is that any different than saying, "dont dare talking about islam unless you've been a hardcore follower in that circle for 40 years who experienced all the pros and cons himself. Otherwise just shove your opinions up your butt and stay silent".

These are very tricky and nuanced grounds. Don't fall into the trap of demanding "all perspectives be heard."

Don't forget this forum has the express goal of helping people self actualize.

Leo does his best to prevent the spread of misinformation to uphold the forum's goal of helping people self actualize.

He isn't haphazardly shutting people down because they disagree with him.

He is elaborately targeting ignorance and inexperience.

So the question, then, is: at what point does ignorance become wisdom, and inexperience become experience?

Well you'll never find that dividing line because it doesn't really exist... but Leo has to do his best.

If we allowed people to chatter away, things would become so toxic so fast.

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by RendHeaven

[yellowschnee]

In my opinion almost no threads should be locked

 

[DrewNows]

3 minutes ago, yellowschnee said:

In my opinion almost no threads should be locked

 

Why do you believe that? 

[Preetom]

36 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

These are very tricky and nuanced grounds. Don't fall into the trap of demanding "all perspectives be heard."

Don't forget this forum has the express goal of helping people self actualize.

Leo does his best to prevent the spread of misinformation to uphold the forum's goal of helping people self actualize.

He isn't haphazardly shutting people down because they disagree with him.

He is elaborately targeting ignorance and inexperience.

So the question, then, is: at what point does ignorance become wisdom, and inexperience become experience?

Well you'll never find that dividing line because it doesn't really exist... but Leo has to do his best.

If he just let people chatter away, things would become so toxic so fast.

 

Nah Leo is doing good. Not even the greatest masters went through everything smoothly.

So there is always gonna be hiccups here and there. Some will be helped while others will be repelled.

I wish good luck to whatever mission Leo is on ?

[Truth Addict]

@bmcnicho

I'm not a fan of locking threads. If I find something worth reading, I read it. If not, I ignore it. It's just that simple.

On the other hand, most religious topics are controversial and can easily trigger the ego. Therefore, I think it's better to discuss religion only at tier two of Spiral Dynamics.

I'm not saying that I agree with Leo's decision. I personally prefer letting thoughts run their course, and cause suffering, and then that suffering will create the desire for Truth.

I'm just saying that it should be pointed out that most religious debates are mental masturbation and ego games as reminder.

I believe that for extroverted people discussions help to raise awareness, and perhaps even create mystical experiences (as some members stated many times). And that for introverted people, alone inquiries are the best. That's why I think that almost no threads should be locked.

@Inliytened1 Am I right with the bold statements?

Edited June 27, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Truth Addict]

3 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

Do you think Advaita Vedanta is that?

I don't even know what that means.

I'm talking about religious debates in general, or basically any kind of debate.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Apparition of Jack]

27 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

I believe that for extroverted people discussions help to raise awareness, and perhaps even create mystical experiences (as some members stated many times). And that for introverted people, alone inquiries are the best. That's why I think that almost no threads should be locked.

Not all discussion is equal. If that was the case, your loud-mouthed uncle who loves ranting about politics and sports after a few cans of beer would be enlightened in no time, and yet we know for a fact that his hilarious rants often cement his delusion and ignorance, not draw him out of it. You have to be way more discriminating with the words you're putting out into the universe.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Apparation of Jack

[Preetom]

1 minute ago, Apparation of Jack said:

Not all discussion is equal. If that was the case, your loud-mouthed uncle who loves ranting about politics and sports after a few cans of beer would be enlightened in no time, and yet we know for a fact that his hilarious rants often cement his delusion and ignorance, not draw him out of it. You have to be way more discriminating with the words you're putting out into the universe.

Lol

My opinion is if one is communicating, then one should keep the context, coherency and logic of it intact. 

It should not involve the shouting of a lunatic (like how some people purge here after whatever 'insight' it is they encounter) or an impossible chasm (like go meditate for 50 years or take this substance and then come back) or regressing into idle relativism and deconstruction (like oh ho its all language and beliefs! Just shut up and see how enlightened I am for pointing this out!)

[Truth Addict]

@Apparation of Jack

Like @Preetom said, and I like to add that the context is here realising Truth, but debating distorts that intention.

And my loud-mouthed uncle does not do any of that. LOL. He does some other things though.

And @Preetom, I think that even screaming lunatically is good too. It's an expression of the Self after all, just like dancing and singing. It's a form of God expressing itself. The smart thing to do here is to make a room for such behaviours (organise them), because otherwise they will be stored in the body as trauma.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Preetom]

17 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Apparation of Jack

Like @Preetom said, and I like to add that the context is here realising Truth, but debating distorts that intention.

And @Preetom, I think that even screaming lunatically is good too. It's an expression of the Self after all, just like dancing and singing. It's a form of God expressing itself. The smart thing to do here is to make a room for such behaviours, because otherwise they will be stored in the body as trauma.

Yes I agree with you. But there is a section called 'journals' in this forum for all that personal littering to take place. Best to do it in private in a diary, but if its too expressive then the journal section is there.

But whenever something is posted on other subforums, it is expected that others might join in and a discussion might follow from there. And one is bound to keep a coherrent discussion there as it is not ones ''personal littering space" anymore.

And intellectual debates, exchanging ideas is crucial and it has its vital place on the journey. Or else this whole spirituality business will devolve into a fundamentalist religion with a holy book. But that must be done within proper context, with a willingness to learn and with an intelligence to notice where one's tire of understanding and pet theories gets leaked and becomes unable to move forward.

For me personally, things became clear through this studying, understanding, applying and contrasting with other ideas and POVs and ultimately seeing the dryness and unsubstantiality of gathering knowledge as well- which further motivates me to do the real work.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Preetom

[Truth Addict]

@Preetom

I agree ? We're still learning how to express ourselves in healthy ways.

[Preetom]

2 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Preetom

I agree ? We're still learning how to express ourselves in healthy ways.

Most time all those one sided lunatic ravings are validation seeking dynamic at work. So either by encouraging them or opposing them, we are only poking and validating that dynamic; and thats precisely what it wants!!

So we are really harming them by making that dynamic become more entrenched than supporting them or doing good to them.