Why does suffering exist

[Truth Addict]

@Dylan Page

You have a very myopic concept of love. It's the mainstream concept of what love is and how it should be.

God's Love literally encompasses EVERYTHING, it doesn't leave anything out, because that would mean that Love is not infinite.

Love is infinite that it loves all the things that you as an ego can't even think of loving/accepting.

You see where I'm getting at?

For God to exclude suffering, it means that God is not all loving. God is infinitely loving that It loves suffering and creates it.

True love is love for everything, not only the things that please the ego.

Hope that answers your question.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Commodent]

Suffering is there to avoid painful experiences, because if we didn't suffer we would keep doing things that are not good for us. So suffering can arise from what we do internally and what we do externally. For most people, I'd say it is mostly an internal problem that can be solved by resolving inner conflicts.

[Dylan Page]

From what I’m understanding, love isn’t actually anything. If everything can be loved, then what is love? It appears meaningless. Meaningless in the sense that it doesn’t actually have any value at all. @Truth Addict @Scholar

[Scholar]

To say badness should not exist because it is bad is like saying redness should not exist because it is red.

[Scholar]

3 minutes ago, Dylan Page said:

From what I’m understanding, love isn’t actually anything. If everything can be loved, then what is love? It appears meaningless. Meaningless in the sense that it doesn’t actually have any value at all. @Truth Addict @Scholar

Love is presence, beingness. It is existence. Nothing has value, only value is valuable. The existence of value is love, not the other way around.

You are completely deluding yourself with that kind of thinking. It's like saying things are red. No, no thing is red but redness itself. In the same way, no thing is valuable but value itself. You are projecting one fascets of existence onto another.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Scholar

[Truth Addict]

@Dylan Page Yes, love is nothing and everything at the same time.

It only appears meaningless because you're trying to understand it.

You don't think love, you feel it.

[Dylan Page]

@Shiva why do we live in a reality in which suffering is necessary for survival. Given that reality is infinitely loving.  

Edited June 24, 2019 by Dylan Page

[Truth Addict]

10 minutes ago, Shiva said:

To keep you alive!

That's not true. Dig deeper.

4 minutes ago, Dylan Page said:

@Shiva why do we live in a reality in which suffering is necessary for survival. 

Suffering is not a must for survival. Cells, for example, survive and don't suffer.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Dylan Page]

Right but cells (as far as we know aren’t alive) They are just a process, or a pattern. Life without consciousness. From our point of view, it just seems like we are the same way, but happen to have consciousness. Cells don’t experience joy either @Truth Addict

[Scholar]

8 minutes ago, Dylan Page said:

@Shiva why do we live in a reality in which suffering is necessary for survival. Given that reality is infinitely loving.  

To say reality is infinitely loving is bad phrasing, especially for someone who has no idea what they are talking about when using these words.

 

Isness is not loving, Isness IS Love, it is Agape. There no God who loves everything, God IS Love. There is no reality that has a fascet of Love, Reality in it's essence is Love. Existence = Love. The beingness of all aspects is love, Love is not another aspect of reality.

This is where you are fundamentally going wrong, because you view love as an aspect which exists, when existence itself is what we are talking about. All things, including suffering, we might say are features of reality. Love is not a feature, it is the essence of the beingness/Isness/Presence of all features.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Scholar

[DrewNows]

Love goes beyond all distinctions, therefore it can also be seen as being apart of all distinctions 

[Scholar]

For example, you state "Love is meaningless!" and it is completely delusional. Meaninglessness is a feature of reality, Love is not, and you pretend as if Love had any features. No, Love is the Isness of the feature.

So, the truth is: Meaninglessness is fundamentally love, so is valueness, so is redness and all other experiences of existence. You cannot ever say "Love is X" because all Xness will always be Love/Isness.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Scholar

[Shaun]

Suffering is a great survival mechanism, but it's so stupidly designed that you still suffer even when being tortured and you know there's no escape. A truly loving god would include an auto euthanise function for these situations. In fact, a truly infinitely loving god would not create anything at all.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Shaun

[Zigzag Idiot]

In Gurdjieff's writings he stressed the importance of Intentional suffering. John Bennett, a student and friend of Gurdjieff gave some commentary on this subject.

In Talks on Beelzebub's Tales, Bennett distinguishes four types of suffering - Unnecessary Suffering, Unavoidable Suffering, Voluntary Suffering and Intentional Suffering. 

The first is Unnecessary Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that we incur because of our unreasonable attitudes and expectations towards others, from our ill-will, hatred and rejection of others, from doubt, possessiveness, arrogance and self pity. In other words, suffering arising from our self-importance.

The second is Unavoidable Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that comes to us by accident or from events beyond our control, such as interpersonal conflicts, war, disaster, disease or death.

Third, we have Voluntary Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that we take upon ourselves in order to accomplish a personal aim, such as an athlete who disciplines himself to win a race, or a student who labours to get good grades.

And finally we have Intentional Suffering. According to Bennett, this would be the kind of suffering that we take upon ourselves in order to accomplish an impersonal or altruistic goal, one that is directed more towards service to others or to the Work, and not for any personal gain. Bennett assumes that this is what Gurdjieff meant by Intentional Suffering.

The quotes here were taken from this web page which expounds more around this.

https://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/philo_is_talk_ae2005.htm

[Truth Addict]

Just now, Shiva said:

More complex systems require more complex mechanisms to operate by. Hence, animals and humans suffer. Cells also have mechanisms, but they are less sophisticated than suffering as we experience it.

What's complex and sophisticated about suffering? It's obviously the most ignorant thing to do.

Okay, let's take some human examples:

• Infants survive and don't suffer.
• "Insane" people survive and don't suffer.
• All of us can survive without suffering if we all become enlightened.

Animals, as far as my knowledge goes, have never admitted feeling suffering.

Be careful not to confuse pain with suffering. They're completely different things.

[Zigzag Idiot]

If I have no aim, I become an unguided projectile.

If I'm propelled by the emotions found in unnecessary suffering, I become an unguided Golum.

[DrewNows]

@possibilities I like how you described differences and reality mate. We might be going off topic a bit 

What if reality is you, experiencing itself? Could any differences be seen without a seer? Could an objective world even be verifiable without a you here? 

I did not realize Truth addict claimed happiness does not exist...lol still do not see where be says such 

[Truth Addict]

1 hour ago, Shiva said:

A human being or an animal is essentially an accumulation of billions of cells. Keeping a system of billions of cells "alive" requires more sophisticated methods than for individual cells. The ability to suffer is one of them. Hence the increased complexity.

What about when suffering ends up leading to suicide?

Again, pain is not suffering.

1 hour ago, Shiva said:

As I said, suffering is not the ONLY thing that is keeping you alive. It is one mechanism of many.

Physical survival has nothing to do with suffering, you merely think it does.

We survive only because we're blessed. That's all.

Suffering can be just a part of the path, it's not necessary at all.

1 hour ago, Shiva said:

Of course they suffer. Some animals even show very human-like characteristics when they suffer. For example, elephants even mourn when family members die. This is a form of emotional suffering, which goes way beyond simple avoidance of physical pain, which I'd consider a more basic form of suffering.

Suffering is still an assumption.

Moaning does not necessarily mean suffering. It can mean anything, but suffering is your interpretation.

I have personally cried many times out of joy and ecstasy.

Suffering is irrelevant to physical survival, it's just an egoic strategy for egoic survival.

Nothing has to do anything with survival but pure luck or bless.

Because if the purpose of anything was survival, then we wouldn't ever die.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Truth Addict

[AlwaysBeNice]

Because it's your unique created experience, to experience what it's like to not love, and to overcome that and to remember love

[Telepresent]

@Dylan Page I've not bothered reading the last three pages. The answer to your question lies within an examination of the word "why", and the assumptions it implies. 

But you have to go all the way with the assumptions. 

ALL the way