Can Leo do anything demonstrable "superhuman" and going foreward for actualize.org

[Dimi]

4 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

@FrankTheTank  Consciously healing your body is not something superhuman, Wim Hof can do that and his students can also do that, without using any DPT. They have a scientific evidence of it  

Good point @bejapuskas

Everything that happens unconsciously can be done much better consciously, think about breathing for example.

The body already heals itself when you are wounded isn't it so why do you think it can't be "improved" (lack of words) by doing it consciously for example? Do you know that for example thoughts can alter the molecule state of water (and other things)? Your body is made of 72% of water, did you know? If not do some quick searches, you will find enough about it.

 

If all this seems "believable" to you, what makes other things not?

 

 

Edited June 25, 2019 by Dimi
added stuff :)

[Matt8800]

On 6/23/2019 at 3:01 PM, FrankTheTank said:

 

a) for Leo and the community to try to come up with something, anything, that could verify/give credence to the claimed insights

b) I also thought it would be intersting and productive and also healthy for leo to not only give talks but instead to also from time to time bring guests online to have a constructive debate/critique with them regarding his metaphysics or insights or how one could verify claims. 

 

@FrankTheTank Verification is your responsibility. A lot of people say a lot of things. If you dont develop the ability to discern the truth on your own, it will bring confusion. 

Siddhis can definitely develop with concentration and purification. Recently, I projected my consciousness into my fiances bedroom and wispered "hi" into her ear to see what would happen. I didnt tell her and the next day, she told me she sensed me in her room and heard me say hi into her ear "as clear as day". How would I prove that? It was proven to myself and that is all that matters. Once your ego is dissolved, why would you care what others believe?

I have also had knowledge of traumatic experiences some people have had in their lives without them telling anyone (usually childhood rape/molestation). I received the information with instructions to tell them along with how they can free themselves of their burden. I dont know exactly where this information comes from but I associate it to what I call my spirit guide, who has been talking to me for the last 3 years.

I should disclose that I have meditated every day for several years and have gone through a lot of purification. Nobody is going to be able to do much if their ego is still in control or have not developed their powers of concentration. Also, my fiance is a natural clairvoyant, which I am sure increased her ability to "hear" me. 

Warning: If someone seeks to develop "powers" without purification, they are asking for trouble.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Matt8800

[ajasatya]

@FrankTheTank Look around you. Do you think that the average joe can create something like actualized.org? This very forum is a demonstration of "superhuman" power.

50 minutes ago, Dimi said:

Do you know that for example thoughts can alter the molecule state of water (and other things)?

That experiment has been proved irreproducible.

[Matt8800]

2 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

@FrankTheTank Look around you. Do you think that the average joe can create something like actualized.org? This very forum is a demonstration of "superhuman" power.

That experiment has been proved irreproducible.

Actually, a lot of those experiments are reproducible -

http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm

[ajasatya]

6 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

Actually, a lot of those experiments are reproducible -

http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm

Dean Radin is seriously legit, but @Dimi was talking about those photos of water molecules that became famous.

[Dimi]

39 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

Dean Radin is seriously legit, but @Dimi was talking about those photos of water molecules that became famous.

@ajasatya I was/am talking about Dr Masaru Emoto's study/experiments. Can you tell me more on who and why they have been proved irreproducible?

 

Edited June 25, 2019 by Dimi

[ajasatya]

15 minutes ago, Dimi said:

Can you tell me more on who and why they have been proved irreproducible?

It's nothing new...

• Kenneth G. Libbrecht. "Snowflake Myths and Nonsense". California Institute of Technology. Retrieved 21 July 2012.
• Harriet Hall (November 2007). "Masaru Emoto's Wonderful World of Water". Skeptical Inquirer.
• Reville, William (February 17, 2011). "The pseudoscience of creating beautiful (or ugly) water". The Irish Times. Dublin. p. 14. Retrieved 2014-08-21
• Koh, Lay Chin (January 28, 2009). "A 'hado' will never replace a home full of life". New Straits Times. Kuala Lumpur, MY. p. 17. Retrieved 2014-08-21.
• Tiller, William (2004). "What the Bleep do we Know!?: A Personal Narrative". Vision In Action. 2 (3–4).
• Matthews, Robert (April 8, 2006). "Water: The quantum elixir". New Scientist (2546).

[outlandish]

Being able to sit in front of a camera and deliver an informed and engaging monologue on a deep topic in a single take (or two) is a pretty damn superhuman ability.

I tried to shoot a 2 minute video on a DIY electronics topics once and looked like a fool  

[Pouya]

@tenta I really loved the video

Its nice that he's trying to cut through some of the bullshit and at least doesn't make it full black and white.

But the limits of science are still present which is not acknowledged.

[Dimi]

2 hours ago, ajasatya said:

It's nothing new...

• Kenneth G. Libbrecht. "Snowflake Myths and Nonsense". California Institute of Technology. Retrieved 21 July 2012.
• Harriet Hall (November 2007). "Masaru Emoto's Wonderful World of Water". Skeptical Inquirer.
• Reville, William (February 17, 2011). "The pseudoscience of creating beautiful (or ugly) water". The Irish Times. Dublin. p. 14. Retrieved 2014-08-21
• Koh, Lay Chin (January 28, 2009). "A 'hado' will never replace a home full of life". New Straits Times. Kuala Lumpur, MY. p. 17. Retrieved 2014-08-21.
• Tiller, William (2004). "What the Bleep do we Know!?: A Personal Narrative". Vision In Action. 2 (3–4).
• Matthews, Robert (April 8, 2006). "Water: The quantum elixir". New Scientist (2546).

I am not saying this to argue with you neither what you presented as "sources" nor do I want to continue on Masaru Emoto's claims but from my own experience as well as many others (mostly yogi's, which I learned this from) I can confirm you that you can alter the state of water and without a doubt you can change how the water affects you when drinking it or use it (washing etc...). You don't have to believe me but if you are open to it have a look at this, this or this for example or do your own research your way. 

Kind regards

[FrankTheTank]

regarding scientific proof: scientific evidence is not a binary Yes or No.
But you have to start somewhere if you want to have the hope that you could come to some more definite conclusion than "oh you just have to find out for yourself". science tries to gather evidence in some form to foster a hypothesis. the more smart people think about good experiments or any other way to nail down what is truth and what is dillusion the better.
so SOME demonstration of ANY INSTERSTING phemomenon in the form of a video would be a good start - i really find it hard to understand why anyone would not be interested and even demand to find some such demonstrable phenomenon, instead of just loftier and loftier claims of insights month after month.
as I already said a video can of course be manipulated but that would require effort and malicious intent (which i dont think leo has).
While just building castles in the sky of your mind requires nothing more that confirmation bias and taking your experience during a trip as ultimate insight.

ultimately, if you cannot do anything with an insight AND you can also not show any evidence that it is really true why should one persue it.
its of no practical use at all and its not even that you can be confident that you gatherd true knowledge.
so is it then nothing more a consolation project for people who find lifes circumstances difficult to endure?

 

@bejapuskas

could you please link to that evidence?

i know about his breathing technique but i am not aware of his ability to heal the body.
But already I am quite confident that (if he demonstrates anything relevant to healing the body at all) what he demostrates will be a rather small effect under low quality study conditions. otherwise I am pretty sure i would have heard about it.

... but you are very welcome to prove me wrong...

 

--Frank

Edited June 27, 2019 by FrankTheTank

[FrankTheTank]

@Matt8800

I have read a book by dean radin. i agree that he is smart and serious but the obvious problem with all his research - that is now going on for decades - is the following:
he/the whole PSI community can not present a single experiment with a strong effect size that can be (at least somewhat

) RELYABLY reproduced (even by them) . independent international teams have tried to reproduce and regularly failed.
another conspicuous point is that there seems to be little progress in the field.
afer all the decades they can not come up with some criterion to carefully select a group of very suitable people (like close relative or long time meditators) and thereby increase the relyabily/reproduceability considerably.
 

@Dimi

On 25.6.2019 at 3:23 PM, Dimi said:

That is the whole thing that makes it difficult for your ego/personality to surrender to it, "I find it hard to believe..."

Why? You should seriously thing about why you want to believe it in the first place? You want to believe but on your conditions

 

I want to explore this because there are two interesting domains to explore for us: the outer world (fundamentally physics) and the inner world (psychology, introspection) and their relationship/dependence (spirituality/metaphysics).
Its not that I want to believe. I am interested to gain knowledge and skill.
While I am conviced of the utility of the skill of meditation for understanding my mind and to improve my wellbeing I have found nothing so far that convinced me that one gains any special metaphysical or otherwise special knowledge through meditation/spirituality.
So if anyone on earth has it and can show something it would help me/be the only way for me to free the required time in my schedule - which - as I said - is a zero-sum resource.

On 25.6.2019 at 3:23 PM, Dimi said:

I would say not only but yes, this is sort of "the law of attraction" which makes lots of sense if you have certain experiences or try out yourself.

I have tried, but found nothing extrodinary there. Additionally and maybe more relevant if I look at the world and at history I find the state of affairs difficult to square with any "law of attraction" or  karmic- or otherwise "special"/esoteric priciple.

 

 

 

[bejapuskas]

@FrankTheTank  https://www.wimhofmethod.com/science This is on his website  Some of the researches are from the same scientists and some of them are social scientists (I don't really know why) but there are also legit medicine professors among them. I actually haven't googled it before, because I trust everything Wim Hof says  But thanks for having me do this.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323106660_Brain_over_body-A_study_on_the_willful_regulation_of_autonomic_function_during_cold_exposure

https://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379

 

[Leo Gura]

I am in your imagination. The point is that YOU are the one doing the superhuman task of imagining me into being.

You created me!

You created the whole universe!

You are God.

Wake up! You are only talking to yourself here.

[FrankTheTank]

@bejapuskas

Thanks for looking up the links. but:
1. Non of these articles you linked show "conscious healing of the body", or have I missed it?

2. the only somewhat substantive study is (https://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7379) the randomized stuy where they got infected with Escherichia coli endotoxin.

But while the results might be somewhat intersting, the obvious (and there are far more not so obvious ones) mehtodological shortcomings are 1. the improvement in symptoms was selfreported so there was way for blinding. Also the improvement in symptoms was subjective and not an objective measure of how the dissease/symptoms evolve. 2. The Wim Hoff method also includes an "exposure to cold" training which is well kown to enhance ones resilience. Also reduction of stress which is fosterd by meditation (which is also part of wim hoffs method)  is known to have an anti-inflamatory effect.
The whole study protocol is an all too well know way to veil uneffective procedures: 1) You choosen a dissease (like pain) where the manifestation of the dissease is a matter subjective reporting instead of an objective outcome measure 2) you mix your (potentially)uneffective intervention with other things that are well known to be somewhat effective.
Still, maybe the breathing technique does bring some (probably small) effect but its really nothing like mind over matter in the advertised sense.

...and I guess this was my point from the beinning of the post: if a spiritual teaching/community wants to make claims about effects other than "I leaned a lot about my inner world through introspection" or "I am more psychological healthy and that it benefited my sleeppattern and social relationships" they have to put serious, >>open ended<< intent/effort to finding evidence for and also against it.

And wasnt that the purpose of the "true seeker" project in the first place: to try to find out how the world really is.
And not to just blindly trot along a path of old text sayings and wishful thinking, about how we are all god and death is an illusion and in the end everything will be good regardless of what we do and we are all one and mind over matter. Who wouldnt want this to be true? but our preference in that metaphysical outlook itself should make us much more suspicious.

[FrankTheTank]

@Leo Gura

I understand your point and maybe i am and maybe i have. But as I did not have had any of these dramatic experiences myself - despite quite serious spiritual efforts - i cant say.

but i really think it is the right direction for the acutalize community and also for you to take far more seriously the possibility that thats not so.
to get into long format (like joe rogan) well intentioned discussion (maybe one dicussion video every month?) with a wide spectrum of smart people about what is really the case and what is not and how to go about finding an intersting demonstration. this will certainly be a difficult undertaiking and will require creativity and serious work but imo thats the only way to bring these far off teachings/practices out to the wider public.
In some video you talked about that your true life purpose is to teach people, to get the knowledge out in the word. If you are really serious about it this should be the way to go.

I think a good example is the PSI community as represented by people like dean radin. Imo they did not yet succeed to give good evidence for a PSI phenomenon. But they are serious and really try hard and they  are scientifically quite rigoruous.

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by FrankTheTank

[Leo Gura]

28 minutes ago, FrankTheTank said:

it is the right direction for the acutalize community and also for you to take far more seriously the possibility that thats not so.

Hahaha....

No

I will not be joining your delusions. Don't expect awakened people to play your mind games.

[FrankTheTank]

@Leo Gura

Well, it was you who (rightfully) proposed scpticism and open mindedness as a virtue.
If you dont always, in your quest for truth, take the possibility serious that the world might not be the way you currently conceive of it - thats imho problematic.

Trying to underpin your views by finding some corroborative evidence or some testable theory is not delusional nor a mind game.
Please try to at least sympatheticly consider to bring well intentioned construcive input from smart "outsiders" to actualized.org.
debate is one of the best intellectual tool humanity has at hands.

another commendable example of someone who tries to substantiate this spiritual intuaition of the world is rupert sheldrake who proposed his theory of morphic resonance. again, I dont think he has succeeded yet in demonstrating good evidence, but it is the way to move a field of inquiry forward.

Edited June 29, 2019 by FrankTheTank

[Leo Gura]

@FrankTheTank I understand it looks that way from your POV, but you do not yet understand how radical Absolute Truth is. It cannot be doubted.

The end result of openmindedness is Absolute Truth, at which point you are beyond the mind entirely and you are never going back nor will you ever compromise with ignorance.

Don't mistake openmindedness for compromise with ignorance. Not all positions warrant serious consideration. Once you taste nonduality you will never take dualistic positions seriously again.

[Dimi]

@FrankTheTank You are trying to have/get "proof" of something that isn't from the same realm, this, is an non ending desire that in my opinion will never be fulfilled.

It's an experience based domain, not a physical one. You can prove (and there has been) certain things like heating/cooling of the body by certain states of being and some other similar things but further than that you will not have it.

Why is it that you think you need something that will give you enough willingness to pursue further?

Are you aware that you yourself are 100% responsible for your willingness?

You say:

"I want to explore this because there are two interesting domains to explore for us: the outer world (fundamentally physics) and the inner world (psychology, introspection) and their relationship/dependence (spirituality/metaphysics)."

You should watch some more videos (or do some research) about duality and non duality

because by your statements you are overseeing certain fundamentals which will prohibit you from understanding certain things.

 

"I have tried, but found nothing extrodinary there. Additionally and maybe more relevant if I look at the world and at history I find the state of affairs difficult to square with any "law of attraction" or  karmic- or otherwise "special"/esoteric priciple."

Maybe you didn't tried the proper things? Maybe you have to try longer and harder? Maybe you don't have to try anything, don't add things in your behavior/life but let go of things?

I am not saying you can't understand or anything like that, really not, but you need a certain standing point to be open to certain things and be able to perceive/accept/realize them.

See how you may have had certain beliefs in the past which have drastically changed (change of perception) from which you may have thought completely the contrary in the past, same goes for this except we are talking about fundamentals of life, so you can imagine what is involved here and at stake ?

 

Kind regards.