Leo/Mods please stop locking threads.

[Inliytened1]

@Truth Addict when that day dawns we shouldn't need Mods

 

[Truth Addict]

@Dan502 I just did check it out, and I agree but not quite much. Then again, it's just me. If you find it potentially useful, then who am I to say otherwise?

@Inliytened1 I'm not sure. But I'm sure it'll be great to get there, whether we still need moderation or not.

_____

Okay, thanks everyone for contributing.

I think Leo, moderators, me, and other members have made great and useful comments about this topic. There may be still a room for more perspectives but I am personally satisfied with everyone's responses.

If any of the mods wants to lock this thread, I don't mind that a single bit. I think it would be a distraction for everyone to discuss this subject even more.

Thank you ❤️

Edited June 18, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Bill W]

@Truth Addict We have opposing views on this issue, but I really respect your humility. I don't see much sign of you taking things too personally which is a trait I am working on myself. 

[Moreira]

If you want to talk about redpilled topics you wont be welcome in this forum. i agree with the OP that there is very low tolerance.

[Joseph Maynor]

Wasn't Leo into Pickup himself?  He should have some sympathy for guys who go that route.  Take these people and help them, don't tear them down.  Be careful about becoming too puritanical.  Take people as they come.  You were that way once too, remember.  Everyone is doing what they think is best.  Guide them tenderly and with acceptance and compassion, don't shut them down and make them feel dirty, immoral, or stupid.  Examine your own judgment about PUA topics.  Why the strong moral feeling?  That sounds like attachment.  Realize that people as systems are doing their best to try to manifest their preferences.  Every person is noble and smart in that sense.  Don't beat that down just because right now in your growth this looks stupid, immoral, or uncouth.  Don't put things in your Shadow by clinging to being puritanical.  That's a Stage Blue trap.  

Edited June 18, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Bill W]

Joseph I actually resonate with you a lot more than I do with Leo (generally speaking) - I'd have you as my mentor ahead of him, so keep that in mind here if you can. Just asking some questions here. Devil's advocate. 

34 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

He should have some sympathy for guys who go that route

Tyranny of the "shoulds" as Albert Ellis would say, although I think it was Karen Horney originally. I'm as much into practicing and working on my compassion as most, but this is not a place where Leo has to show sympathy for certain things. I think it's unhealthy if people are posting on here with any kind of expectation Leo will come in and dispatch some sympathy. He might do it every now and then, but we can't cling to that. 

34 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Take these people and help them, don't tear them down. 

Who is tearing who down? Are people feeling torn down? That's an emotion sending a message. Work on the real reasons for that. Leo is not the reason. 

34 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Take people as they come

Perhaps, I guess that's true other acceptance which a great thing to strive for, but on a teaching forum where the message given is often blunt and to the point. If Leo took everyone as they come nothing would get done here in my opinion. I would imagine most people are here to affect change in themselves (I think?). Would do people expect on here? I want certain people in my life to take me as I come perhaps, but not Leo, let him have his say on me if he chooses. I don't need to accept it, or feel hurt about it. This is not the Samaritans. Leo is not Carl Rogers. This is not a client-centred place. 

34 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Guide them tenderly and with acceptance and compassion, don't shut them down and make them feel dirty, immoral, or stupid. 

Again, what the real reason for someone feeling dirty, immoral, or stupid on here? Is it Leo that is the reason? You are going to be a life coach, what will you tell your clients if they say Joe Bloggs from down the road made me feel dirty, immoral, or stupid? Would you tell them that Joe Bloggs needs to be more compassionate and tender? Or would you advise your client to move to a place where all is compassionate and tender? Or would you go to work on their belief system? Their thinking habits? Their sensitivities? You would help them grow I am sure. You can't depend on another person for your peace of mind, it's nuts.

 

 

Edited June 18, 2019 by Bill W
Love xxx

[Bill W]

Very rare for me to seemingly argue against warmth, empathy, compassion etc. I almost feel uncomfortable doing so.

I feel like your post is awesome Joseph from a human perspective. It's just not balanced with the reality of what we are doing on this forum. It's asking Leo to be what he is either not, or is, but cannot be here. Asking black to be white. 

@Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

@Bill W

(1) 

 Joseph Maynor said:

He should have some sympathy for guys who go that route

Bill W said:

Tyranny of the "shoulds" as Albert Ellis would say, although I think it was Karen Horney originally. I'm as much into practicing and working on my compassion as most, but this is not a place where Leo has to show sympathy for certain things. I think it's unhealthy if people are posting on here with any kind of expectation Leo will come in and dispatch some sympathy. He might do it every now and then, but we can't cling to that. 

Joseph Maynor's reply:

My only response to this is one should be sympathetic to one's own Path.  If you had to go through something yourself, you thought at that time that that's what was best; and as smart as you are.  So, if you see another person in that same situation, what do you do?  What could you do to take that person from where they are and move them up peg in order to try to help them?  This is a context-by-context judgment call and it requires good character; namely: compassion, politeness, openness to experience, agreeableness, high emotional stability, and alignment with the Good.

(2) 

Joseph Maynor said:

Take these people and help them, don't tear them down. 

Bill W Said:

Who is tearing who down? Are people feeling torn down? That's an emotion sending a message. Work on the real reasons for that. Leo is not the reason. 

Joseph Maynor's reply:

Look at interactions as an opportunity to help a person, see.  You gotta have some kind of vision for seeing a lack in this person.  And once you see those lacks, then the question becomes how do you give this person something that can take them up a peg in their life.  See, this is why you gotta have compassion and be coming from a really healthy place to be a life coach.  Are you a helper or are you a philosopher?  See, those are two different professions.  This doesn't mean that these two professions can't have a baby together, but it takes the right kind of personality to pull that off.

(3) 

Joseph Maynor said:

Take people as they come

Bill W said:

Perhaps, I guess that's true other acceptance which a great thing to strive for, but on a teaching forum where the message given is often blunt and to the point. If Leo took everyone as they come nothing would get done here in my opinion. I would imagine most people are here to affect change in themselves (I think?). Would do people expect on here? I want certain people in my life to take me as I come perhaps, but not Leo, let him have his say on me if he chooses. I don't need to accept it, or feel hurt about it. This is not the Samaritans. Leo is not Carl Rogers. This is not a client-centred place. 

Joseph Maynor's reply:

People are coming to the Forum for help.  Let's give them a bit of help as best as we can.  

(4) 

Joseph Maynor said:

Guide them tenderly and with acceptance and compassion, don't shut them down and make them feel dirty, immoral, or stupid. 

Bill W said:

Again, what the real reason for someone feeling dirty, immoral, or stupid on here? Is it Leo that is the reason? You are going to be a life coach, what will you tell your clients if they say Joe Bloggs from down the road made me feel dirty, immoral, or stupid? Would you tell them that Joe Bloggs needs to be more compassionate and tender? Or would you advise your client to move to a place where all is compassionate and tender? Or would you go to work on their belief system? Their thinking habits? Their sensitivities? You would help them grow I am sure. You can't depend on another person for your peace of mind, it's nuts.

Joseph Maynor's reply:

Again, this depends on what you want to accomplish and feel in life.  Do you want to be a helper to try to benefit someone else?  Or do you wanna be a philosopher so you can feel right and appear right.  Those are different professions the Life Coach and the Philosopher.  Now, you can merge them, but that takes certain cultivated personality traits to pull off sustainably.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Odysseus]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Wasn't Leo into Pickup himself?  He should have some sympathy for guys who go that route.  Take these people and help them, don't tear them down.  Be careful about becoming too puritanical.  Take people as they come.  You were that way once too, remember.  Everyone is doing what they think is best.  Guide them tenderly and with acceptance and compassion, don't shut them down and make them feel dirty, immoral, or stupid.  Examine your own judgment about PUA topics.  Why the strong moral feeling?  That sounds like attachment.  Realize that people as systems are doing their best to try to manifest their preferences.  Every person is noble and smart in that sense.  Don't beat that down just because right now in your growth this looks stupid, immoral, or uncouth.  Don't put things in your Shadow by clinging to being puritanical.  That's a Stage Blue trap.  

Leo actually gives detailed tips on pick-up topics.

IMO actualized.org should take position against toxic ideologies. If someone asks: 'I feel stuck being a single male for x years now, how can I find a girlfriend?' Everybody will try to help him. But if someone opens a thread: 'Feminism is destroying men's ability to be happy', he's obviously in the wrong place to post that. We argued about topic like this for ages on this forum and it's time to step up from quality like this. It's sad that some people are stuck in certain thinking patterns but this place is about personal-development and spirituality and not a big echo-chamber for victims. This isn't about morals but about evolving the quality of discussion, therefore distractions should be removed.

[ajasatya]

Do not confuse compassion with tolerance. You can be highly compassionate towards someone by showing very little tolerance.

A lot of times, people actually need to hear harsh things that shake them out of their destructive mental patterns. Some people need to be shutdown in order to reevaluate their hypotheses. Unconditionally high tolerance is destructive. It's destructive to the person with filthy thinking patterns and it's destructive to society.

You have the freedom to start new threads. If your thread about redpill gets locked instantly, you may start a new thread asking why redpill is not welcome here and we will do the best we can to answer you properly. But if the thread turns into an ideological war, it will be locked. Make a wise use of your freedom and this forum will serve you as an unique learning environment. If you're not using your freedom wisely, the forum will react and may shut you down somehow. Grow up, go meta and try to understand why it happened. Don't play the role of a SJW who hypocritically tries to change the world.

[Joseph Maynor]

@ajasatya Everybody's compassion seems to come from a different place.  And I'm not saying that's bad.  But when you hold yourself out as a compassion-giver, there's a certain arrogance in that stance toward other people.  See, this stuff gets tricky.  Lots of people hide behind these teachings to feed their narcissism.  The true test is only the generosity and abundance of spirit from which you approach and infuse the people who come into your Community -- that has a certain energy to it and (I daresay) morality to it that you can't fake.  

Edited June 18, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[ajasatya]

@Joseph Maynor Even pointing arrogance on others sound arrogant. Depending on your lens and how you see and discipline yourself, it's possible to find arrogance anywhere! "Hey, look, that guy is quoting himself along with biggies like Stephen Covey and Nietzsche! How arrogant!"

This is an online forum and so it has its limitations. The "generosity and abundance of spirit" that you long for cannot be completely fulfilled here. As I've said before, do your own experiment! Try managing your own open online group without ever being uncomfortably blunt with anybody while still maintaining a high quality experience for the community. It's just pure fantasy. An online forum is very different from Jesus and his disciples or Buddha and his sangha. We're dealing with all sorts of people, including those who come from toxic past experiences and who are unconsciously willing to spread their mental trash across every context they make themselves present. Most people who are that unconscious cannot even understand messages of "generosity and abundance of spirit". This is one of the main lessons that we can take from stories of characters like Jesus.

[Joseph Maynor]

@ajasatya Help has a certain feel to it.  Good-natured-ness.  It has a finger-tip feel.  You can't dodge this issue with your words.  Say what you will, it doesn't take away the real issue.  It just adds a layer on top of the issue.  But I do appreciate your perspective -- you got a good one.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[ajasatya]

@Joseph Maynor There is no dodging, Joseph. What you call "arrogance" may be required in order to maintain order. It's the very least that we can learn from Blue. Every cell of your body is constantly struggling to fight chaos... until it dies. The "effort" to keep things organized is intrinsic to Life itself, and it should manifest in higher levels.

From my perspective, the corrupted feeling of arrogance is characterized by an unconscious lack of willingness to hear and take the words of others in consideration. Arrogance makes one's Heart feel heavy. And, sincerely, this is not what I am feeling as I am talking to you on this thread, discussing the role of a moderator. In fact, I think this kind of thread is essential to all of us.

I am not here to please Leo. I am here for mankind. I think this forum is just the beginning of something BIGGER that's starting to happen. It feels like we're finally learning how to use the internet, like a baby who's learning how to walk.

[electroBeam]

In monasteries, even if you discover something deeply profound, the monastery leaders will dismiss it and harshly tell you you're getting distracted. As uncomfortable and disheartening this is, its the only way to make a completely effective, distraction free spiritual space. The ego will find any way it can to distract, and a supportive, positive environment literally = a growing ground for the ego.

Sorry but this is a harsh fact

For this forum to be truly effective, 80% of the stuff that gets posted on here should be locked. Mine included. 80% of this forum is mental masturbation, and Leo is THE MOST lenient and tolerant teacher I've ever seen; not to his credit, he must be this way because he advocates questioning authority and with that comes all of the liberal devils  Also this is a forum, so there's inherently more freedom on here. 

If you feel this place is too intolerant to posts, go to forums run by Mooji, Matt Khan, Teal Swan and Eckart Tolle. These guys are very supportive and liberal. But have you noticed that 90% of the audience of these people are full of shit? Go talk to a follower of Matt Khan and he/she will tell you she eats potatoes because the spherical shape they make symbolises consciousness and makes them more enlightened . After living through as a follower of one of these groups, you will feel greatful for posts being locked on here, and furthermore you will have an urge for more posts to be locked. Bullshit free spirituality is not a fundamental element of the universe, its because of the work Leo puts in to make sure his content is precise and pure, and its because of the work of the mods trimming this place so that the bullshit is controlled. Let spiritual people loose and you will get the new age movement: i.e. a cesspool of people who have sex with their children because social rules are a social construct, people who quit their jobs because their astrological signs told them to, people who are extreme vegans because their karma and egos have built up an identity of supporting animals, rather than actually having compassion to animals, people who don't understand that machine elves really aren't real and are just ego(well machine elves are as real as the physical dimension), etc.

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by electroBeam

[ajasatya]

4 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

In monasteries, even if you discover something deeply profound, the monastery leaders will dismiss it and harshly tell you you're getting distracted. As uncomfortable and disheartening this is, its the only way to make a completely effective, distraction free spiritual space.

An old zen teacher of mine used to tell a story about a monk who was meditating and saw a flower bloom in front of his eyes. The monk got really excited about it and ran to the zen master to tell him what happened. After listening to him, the zen master screamed "MAKYO, YOU IDIOT! GO BACK TO YOUR MEDITATION ROOM!". The monk went back to his zafu and seated in tears. After a long period of time observing his emotions and mental state, he had a deep kensho.

[Joseph Maynor]

@ajasatya Cool man.  Good vibes.

[electroBeam]

@ajasatya hahaha yes very good!

[mandyjw]

32 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

I think this forum is just the beginning of something BIGGER that's starting to happen. It feels like we're finally learning how to use the internet, like a baby who's learning how to walk.

Ooooo... I LIKE this thought. I think so too. 

[Truth Addict]

@Joseph Maynor @Bill W

Thank you for the insights! I think there is a balance that the moderators are aiming for. I think each one of us is doing their best to maintain a healthy environment for everyone. We want both heart and mind. We just can't expect changes to come immediately, because change requires time.

@Moreira Hopefully that will change.

@Odysseus Old users usually forget to use the search feature. New users probably don't know about it. I think we need to find a way to remind all of us of that feature, because it's very helpful.

@ajasatya Oh, I love this:

7 hours ago, ajasatya said:

I am here for mankind. I think this forum is just the beginning of something BIGGER that's starting to happen. It feels like we're finally learning how to use the internet, like a baby who's learning how to walk.

@electroBeam I see what you mean. But this forum isn't just about enlightenment. It's about Self-Actualization which is way broader than just enlightenment. Plus, the sub-forum "Meditation, Consciousness, Enlightenment, Spirituality" is basically a theoretical framework for research, it's not where enlightenment should happen. Enlightenment is very important, but it's not everything there is to personal development. Leo, as far as my knowledge goes, is the only teacher out there who integrates all of that stuff. That's why I think Actualized.org is the single best place for a human being to be.

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by Truth Addict