Martin Ball can’t sleep anymore

[Space]

@whoareyou Jeez, relax dude. Don't take everything Leo says so literally.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Arhattobe said:

Therein lies the difference between a Buddha and someone on this forum taking about how they don’t exist in a manic state.

Of course. I don't see people confusing those two.

Someone who has a few awakenings is not a master. But also this should not be used to disparage or deny their awakenings -- which are genuine and important, although incomplete.

1 hour ago, Arhattobe said:

It’s delusional and dangerous to think you can see things with perfect clarity without ridding yourself of all defilements.

No one is claiming this either. Self-deception is always at work. Perfect clarity is not how this work works. We are doing the best we can under conditions of limited knowledge and various biases.

The issue I have with your advancing of "enlightenment" is that you're stuck on this notion of mastery or total enlightenment as you've chosen to define it, and dismissing anything shy of it.

Virtually no one here is going to become a master, so talking about total enlightenment is basically pointless here. It's so exceptionally rare that it is irrelevant. If someone is serious about becoming a master, they ain't on this forum, they are in a cave or forest meditating full time and they don't need any outside guidance. They understand how to do the work.

1 hour ago, whoareyou said:

You told me that you have read ALL of his books, yet you are saying here that Martin W Ball was doing shamanic work? Wtf?

I asked you specifically if you read his latest book(you said obviously yes!) and you clearly haven't. Martin W Ball specifically states that shamanism is not compatible with the work that is requried for liberation because it is dualistic in nature.

Dude, chill. By shamanic work I was simply referring to Martin's sessions where he guided clients.

You get really hung up on technicalities without seeing the bigger picture of the conversation.

What Martin was doing is just a variation of shamans offering medicine. Call it what you will.

I have read his books, I'm just not hanging on his every word as you seem to be. I read his books and quickly moved on to greater things. I am not interested in following his books as a step by step instruction manual. Precisely because I have other perspectives to consider and I saw problems with some of his methodology, including the dismissal of insight and intellectual integration of trips. I was also not interested in energetically overloading myself. I asked him about the possibility of energetic overload in an email a long time ago. He said it wasn't a problem at all. And I decided for myself that I don't believe that. It is a legit problem from my POV. And I take that into account whenever I trip and with how I suggest others trips. Because it's pretty obvious to me that disregarding energetic overload can be dangerous and reckless for other people if not for oneself. Which is why I developed the plugging method.

I don't blindly follow people, I learn from them and adapt it to suit myself. I recommend you do the same, otherwise you might end up following someone off a cliff.

[Arhattobe]

@Leo Gura Understand your point, but it is not an arbitrary definition I came up with by myself. Asides from my own experience and understanding.

It’s the Buddhas words, Theravada Buddhist teachings, amongst numerous other teachings and teachers that stress the difference between awakening and the eradication of karma, vasanas, and defilements. 

As to why it’s worth stressing. It’s because if one lands on the path to awakening yet does not know which direction he should go after. He might wander off, get lost and end up in the forest of delusion.

This is the value of teachings like Theravada Buddhism.  

[whoareyou]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Dude, chill. By shamanic work I was simply referring to Martin's sessions where he guided clients.

You get really hung up on technicalities without seeing the bigger picture of the conversation.

What Martin was doing is just a variation of shamans offering medicine. Call it what you will.

This is not me getting hung up on technicalities - there are significant things here which you are not aware of. If you haven't skimmed it, but actually read it carefully, contemplated, and had your own direct experience - you would have a different perspective.

What Martin was doing, was not a variation of shamans offering the medicine. The shamans offer the medicine in a ritualistic way by creating ceremonies. There are lot of dualistic beliefs attached to it. And they offer it to larger groups, anywhere between 10-20 people. Usually the person there smokes Bufo only once. Martin was doing non-dual therapy, and only 1 on 1 sessions. Per session the person would consume it 3 times. Martin clearly stated that what the shamans do and what he does - are very different approaches.

How do I know this? Because I have had experience with the shamans, and have also done things the way Martin W Ball described. 

There is a difference between just reading something, and actually understanding it. 

Quote

I have read his books, I'm just not hanging on his every word as you seem to be. I read his books and quickly moved on to greater things. I am not interested in following his books as a step by step instruction manual. Precisely because I have other perspectives to consider and I saw problems with some of his methodology, including the dismissal of insight and intellectual integration of trips. I was also not interested in energetically overloading myself. I asked him about the possibility of energetic overload in an email a long time ago. He said it wasn't a problem at all. And I decided for myself that I don't believe that. It is a legit problem from my POV. And I take that into account whenever I trip and with how I suggest others trips. Because it's pretty obvious to me that disregarding energetic overload can be dangerous and reckless for other people if not for oneself. Which is why I developed the plugging method.

I don't blindly follow people, I learn from them and adapt it to suit myself. I recommend you do the same, otherwise you might end up following someone off a cliff.

Your EGO clearly got scared, and you backed out. You don't have any direct experience of this - just a limiting belief. Why even ask him, if you are not going to believe him - given you already have opinion which you will not change? You preach open-mindedness, but here you got blinded by fear.

Energetic overload is not a problem- I can personally confirm this as I have verified it for myself. This is actually one of the beauties of 5-MEO, it can provide that energetic overload that no other psychedelic can.

You don't have to blindly follow anyone, but you got to verify things through direct experience, as you have been doing with other things.

The fact that you haven't even done it once up to this point - tells me that there is a lot of fear (nothing wrong with that, very natural with this work). You will say that you don't have the time, or the interest, but that is all excuses. It's much easier to not go all the way, and continue to get insights ,and convince yourself that you are going deeper, and deeper - then to face yourself right on.

When you are ready to move "deeper", you will have to drop the chase for the insights, and the need to intellectually understand everything. It's a trap, which is very evident for me, as I have been there before myself. Few other users on this forum have pointed this out.

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by whoareyou

[okulele]

Chris Bache, a psychonaut who regulary took heroic doses of LSD for 20 years, talks about the consequences and why he stopped.

1. His energy systems were fried, body really messed up.
2. He could not stand coming back down to mundane existence.

(56:40)

Take notes from a fellow explorer!

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, whoareyou said:

Martin was doing non-dual therapy, and only 1 on 1 sessions. Per session the person would consume it 3 times. Martin clearly stated that what the shamans do and what he does - are very different approaches.

Call it what you will.

I know he does not call it shamanism.

Quote

Your EGO clearly got scared, and you backed out. You don't have any direct experience of this - just a limiting belief. Why even ask him, if you are not going to believe him - given you already have opinion which you will not change? You preach open-mindedness, but here you got blinded by fear.

It's not just a matter of being scared. I can do 5-MeO-DMT without being scared.

The issue is caution and safety. There is a difference between egoic fear and healthy caution. Caution is not ego, it's wisdom.

Quote

Energetic overload is not a problem- I can personally confirm this as I have verified it for myself. This is actually one of the beauties of 5-MEO, it can provide that energetic overload that no other psychedelic can.

My direct experience and wisdom says otherwise.

Are you free to do it whatever you want. I but will still warn people about energetic overload and taking big doses.

For the average person it's very easy to get traumatized by taking too much 5-MeO-DMT too rapidly.

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Arhattobe said:

It’s the Buddhas words, Theravada Buddhist teachings, amongst numerous other teachings and teachers that stress the difference between awakening and the eradication of karma, vasanas, and defilements.

I also stress that difference.

And I also stress the difference between awakening and things like cognitive development, moral development, and other developmental lines.

You can be deeply enlightened but still deficient in cognitive development and other important things.

Post-awakening pathologies are very common. An entire book could be written about them.

Which is why I really dislike defining "enlightenment" as total perfection. Once people get that definition in their heads, they start to expect perfection from their fave nondual teachers and then get shocked when they see their fave teacher/guru fall short of that standard because that standard is virtually impossible to meet even after 40 years of practice.

Even when Christ was nailed to the cross he said, "Father, why have you forsaken me?" This was a very human response to a horrific situation. And I'm sure he suffered deeply.

So to set up a standard for students that even Christ could not meet is not wise.

And of course 5-MeO-DMT will never give anyone such an extraordinary degree of perfect equanimity permanently. Although during a 5-MeO-DMT peak, I have had that degree of perfect equanimity, where pain and pleasure are literally indistinguishable. But it will not last.

[Peo]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

And of course 5-MeO-DMT will never give anyone such an extraordinary degree of perfect equanimity permanently. Although during a 5-MeO-DMT peak, I have had that degree of perfect equanimity, where pain and pleasure are literally indistinguishable. But it will not last.

Doesn't 5 MeO-DMT change you. I dont know how many time you have tripped on 5 MeO-DMT, but im just gone quess you have done many times. Havent you gain some more equanimity after all that 5 MeO-DMT you have taken?

[Arhattobe]

@Leo Gura That event was symbolic though I believe, Christ’s death and resurrection after his abandonment are his full enlightenment after his deepest dark night of the soul, but that’s besides the point.

Lets leave it there : ) 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Peo said:

Doesn't 5 MeO-DMT change you. I dont know how many time you have tripped on 5 MeO-DMT, but im just gone quess you have done many times. Havent you gain some more equanimity after all that 5 MeO-DMT you have taken?

It does change you for sure, but in subtle ways.

Mostly what I have gained in not equanimity but understanding, humility, love, God, authenticity, wonder, and overcoming the fear of death. The body is more at ease too.

But I still have much work to do on myself. My equanimity is not great and I still have plenty of cravings.

Without 5-MeO I would not have the understanding of God's mechanics as I do. To me that was the most delicious and important thing. I care more about understanding God than I do about anything else. And so for me my deepest desire was fulfilled with total omniscience.

28 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

@Leo Gura That event was symbolic though I believe, Christ’s death and resurrection after his abandonment are his full enlightenment after his deepest dark night of the soul, but that’s besides the point.

Lets leave it there : ) 

So according to your definition of enlightenment Christ was not enlightened until after he was cruxified and died?

You don't see some absurdity with such a definition?

[Arhattobe]

@Leo Gura Not fully. Yes. It is fairly clear. 

On the cross Jesus says 

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? “

Then he says 

“I thirst.”

Clear indicators of an individual will, resistance, and so forth. 

Then he says 

“It is finished.”

“Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.”

His will, his cravings, his thirst and resistance gone. After his “death” he is reborn in heaven. 

 

Before he was aware he was “god”. The so. Or god. Yet it was not total. Craving existed. Thirst did as well. Defilements and so on.

With their eradication he reached full enlightenment.

 

Keep in mind the crucifixion is likely a symbolic event.

 

[Inliytened1]

Would make sense.  The ego doesn't get enlightened.  The ego dies.  God enlightens himself.  In the case where there is still human form the ego is reborn as both the ego and God.  They are split but one simultaneously.

[Arhattobe]

Not really correct. Just something people that are in the beginning of awakening or stream entry tell themselves to explain the contradictions. Their cognitive dissonance.

[Inliytened1]

@Arhattobe There is both dual and non-dual awareness.

Of course this isn't the same as the formless or pure Being because there is still form.  

[Arhattobe]

@Inliytened1 You are not really understanding my point.

[Inliytened1]

@Arhattobe What have you experienced directly...in terms of mystical experiences.   Because you don't want to get caught up in a story of Jesus from two thousand years ago.  What i am telling you is coming from my own direct experience.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Inliytened1

[Arhattobe]

Haha. Same. 

[Nahm]

31 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Arhattobe There is both dual and non-dual awareness.

Of course this isn't the same as the formless or pure Being because there is still form.  

Could you explain further, or share your experience of, “dual awareness”? 

Also, experientially, how is form separate from formless, or “pure Being”? 

 

[Inliytened1]

@Arhattobe i kinda scrolled back and read the full post again because admittedly i jumped in just reading the few at the end.  So let me ask you..in terms of purifying the ego..ive noticed with myself that i am more conscious now after my awakening experiences..the most powerful and last one being Oneness..conscious that i am alone and that all of this is being imagined by me as God.  Also that i would be every possible perspective.  Both of these happened to me during the same awakening.

Now after rebirth i have a much deeper awareness.  The cravings i had eventually returned..though lessened.  But now i am able to work with these and conquer them much more effortlessly.  But that work is not in itself mystical..its consciousness work. 

The mystical experiences yielded a more fuller awareness now where i can shift awareness and be conscious that all of reality is in my mind.

So i dont believe purification of the ego is the same as Awakening.  But awakening makes it very easy to be self aware of any so called flaws with the ego..because it allows you to see through the ego..and all of reality at this point.   There is also the perspective the ego is perfect just the way it is.   One doesn't have to do any work unless they so choose.  You are perfect as God just the way you are.   So that is a choice.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Inliytened1

[Inliytened1]

@Nahm yes what i mean by dual awareness is my Egos perspective...when in this perspective I'm not directly conscious i am God in the now.  I'm just being me as my small self.  But when i shift awareness i am directly conscious of me as God and this whole thing is in my Mind.  Capital M.  Since reality is a Mind.  In that instant I'm not the small me.  You can't be conscious of both perspecives simultaneously in human form.

The formless is the collapse of all form into pure isness which is what you are.  But both form and formless are identical as One.