Martin Ball can’t sleep anymore

[Enlightenment]

@Arhattobe I'm 2,5 years in no sense of agency, no localized consciousness awakening and I still do experience aversion

2 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

There are also people that meditate for decades but don’t awaken. Don’t understand your point.

People I've mentioned are awake

 

3 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

A lot of mystical traditions equate the eradication of defilements with full enlightenment.

Mystical traditions may even equate full enlightenment with the ability to fly, but there are simply no real-world examples of this. If someone is claiming to fully eradicated aversion, can we take him to the lab and find out? I'm not trying to be rude, in fact, I wish that it would be possible. 

[Arhattobe]

@Enlightenment In Theravada Buddhism they describe how defilements are shed in detail.

At a certain point for example one loses one’s internal dialogue. Then layers underneath churn less and dissipate. This is all evident both within my experience, scripture and a few teachers here and there. 

Many hardwired issues that I couldn’t even imagine life without have left me. The process is very clear.

No agency is merely that no agency. I was in non duality for 2-3 years before the process became evident to me, and really jumpstarted. It also doesn’t happen to everyone.

In Hindu traditions this is called eradicating vasanas, this what “gaining depth” and stages refer to. This is the whole basis of the post awakening process.

[Enlightenment]

2 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

At a certain point for example one loses one’s internal dialogue.

I agree. I have very little to no internal dialogue anymore, very quiet mind.

@Arhattobe

4 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

No agency is merely that no agency. I was in non duality for 2-3 years before the process became evident to me, and really jumpstarted.

So have you fully eradicated aversion? If yes, would you pass the test I've written on a previous page?

[Arhattobe]

@Enlightenment There is a noticable difference between little and none. If you have always had loud music playing in the background your whole life. When someone turns it down a bit it might appear to be almost silent. Yet this is simply due to a lack of reference point. Such a thing will repeat and repeat, even after the loss of internal dialogue. To a point that one can not imagine. Not because of its amazing nature but merely because our only reference point is our own experience. 

I am not at the end of the process though, but it’s pattern is abundantly clear, and each month my experience changes in ways that could not have imagined before. My aversion lessens in ways I could not have imagined, because I did not even see most of the seeds for my aversion. The subconscious hardwired baggage that shaped my view and perspective.

All of this is talked about in Theravada Buddhism. In Theravada abiding in emptiness is merely the beginning, and most of the path after checks out with my experience. 

[wavydude]

Hmm so turns out regular tripping on world's strongest psychodelic can screw you up, who would ever thought 

[Space]

After listening to his podcast episode I actually feel really bad for him. Sounds like he was going through literal hell. I feel grateful for never having any sleep problems.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Space

[Leo Gura]

I have never claimed that 5-MeO will clear you of all defilements or produce mastery. My claim was much more humble: that it produces genuine and very deep awakening experiences which are helpful and healing.

If you want to purify all defilements that will obviously require far more work and it is not likely to happen through psychedelic use alone, although psychedelics ARE very effective at curing certain defilements. But probably not all of them.

To cure all defilements would require lots of daily, near minute to minute practice. It could not be a peak experience. There is value to peak experiences as well as more gradual and mundane daily work.

All of this was quite clear from day one. I don't know why anyone would assume that 5-MeO would do all that work for you. That was never it's purpose. It is not a replacement for inner work, it is a catalyst. Which I have said from my first videos on psychedelics.

Be careful with setting the wrong expectations.

Awakening is not the same as moral perfection or being Christ-like. Awakening is literally just this: becoming conscious of the true nature of ultimate reality. It is not behavioral reform. If you still crave smoking, that's a separate issue.

Many of you guys are talking about mastery, which is something that will take you a lifetime of work.

It is foolish to equate enlightenment with mastery. And no one has ever said that Martin had mastery. This was quite obvious.

Buddhist maps are also poor at taking into account psychedelics. The psychedelic path requires drawing new maps. Actually what psychedics reveal is the inadequecy and partiality of Buddhist maps. The Ten Ox Herding Pics do not work well for psychedelics.

[Arhattobe]

Never said you did. The ridding of defilements goes hand in hand with full enlightenment, however, for each defilement, each piece of subconscious baggage and energetic blockage distorts and does not allow for full clarity. 

This has little to do with moral perfection and behaviour. It is about ridding one’s self of delusions that persist beyond awakening. Delusions that limit one’s reference point. That is how depth is gained. Therein lies the difference between a Buddha and someone on this forum taking about how they don’t exist in a manic state.

[mandyjw]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Awakening is not the same as moral perfection or being Christ-like. Awakening is literally just this: becoming conscious of the truth nature of ultimate reality. It is not behavioral reform.

That's why we still need Jesus. 

I had a natural awakening at the start of April, I was sleeping generally about two hours or two two hour stretches. At the time I had no way of knowing if or when it would stop, it went on for well over a week and calmed down slowly. In a way it was terrifying because it was beyond my control but now I see the wisdom for living my life now is completely letting go of the experience. I still haven't fully let go, not at all. If I had a magic button to push, I would turn it on again. 

It makes me think that psychedelics have some powerful advantages and also some powerful drawbacks. 

 

 

[Arhattobe]

It’s delusional and dangerous to think you can see things with perfect clarity without ridding yourself of all defilements. 

 

[mandyjw]

@Arhattobe Is it? Or is that the grace of God? Our demand for perfection is a defilement itself. 

 

 

 

[Enlightenment]

1 hour ago, Arhattobe said:

My aversion lessens in ways I could not have imagined, because I did not even see most of the seeds for my aversion. The subconscious hardwired baggage that shaped my view and perspective.

Good. I'm not claiming that one can't lessen aversion, even to a large degree. But there's a huge difference between having low aversion and no aversion at all. State of a complete absence of all craving is called Nibbana/cassation and it's impossible to function, interact with the world in this state.

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Enlightenment

[whoareyou]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Esoteric I specifically asked him how many trips it took him to have his awakening and it was not a lot. Not as many as you mention above.

Then he started being a shaman. Which is what he describes in that vid above. And yeah, I stand corrected, seems like he did a lot of it at that point as part of his shaman gig.

So he did much more than me then in total.

I did not realize he was smoking it in every shaman session.

Also, taking on other people's bad energy could be very problematic if that's what his shamanism involved.

You told me that you have read ALL of his books, yet you are saying here that Martin W Ball was doing shamanic work? Wtf?

I asked you specifically if you read his latest book(you said obviously yes!) and you clearly haven't. Martin W Ball specifically states that shamanism is not compatible with the work that is requried for liberation because it is dualistic in nature. He talks about these things in detail.

The way that shamans use psychedelics and the way that Martin W Ball did, are very DIFFERENT.

Also, without taking into account Martin W Balls' sessions with clients, he individually has done easily over 100 trips alone. It may have taken him a few to get an "awakening", but far more afterwards that he described as "full liberation".

 

[tsuki]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Awakening is not the same as moral perfection or being Christ-like. Awakening is literally just this: becoming conscious of the true nature of ultimate reality. It is not behavioral reform. If you still crave smoking, that's a separate issue.

To become conscious of the true nature of ultimate reality requires the purity of the mind, heart and senses. That is not awakening, that is being Christ-like.

It requires the full dissolution.

Edited June 15, 2019 by tsuki

[Arhattobe]

@mandyjw It is. What you said is just some idealistic view of life. What I’m talking about has little to do with perfection, but ridding yourself of all that limits your perspective.

@Enlightenment when I had little internal dialogue I though no internal dialogue would be impossible. Yet it is possible. How vast the difference is between my aversion level in the past and now is also something I couldn’t imagine.

The only issue right now is that you can’t imagine the words of Buddha being true. Your reference point is too limited.

Most of this is clearly described in Theravada. In detail.

 

[Salvijus]

Love this thread many amazing points sayed by arhattobe

 

[AlwaysBeNice]

I think ridding yourself of all defilement is overrated, I think it's good to become aware and have seriously worked and studied with your own emotional body and healing for some years for most people,

but a human functioning will always have aversion, conditioning, desires etc., right, even though there can be a totally different way of experiencing it.

perhaps unless it's completely permeated by some meditative state, but for what purpose, afaik, true deep awakening should rid you, first of the self-image that makes you want to look perfect, and second to be free to be a bit of a messy human if you want to be, and probably will be, but realizing you're not bound.

[AlwaysBeNice]

This is a good example of how Awakening is ultimately part of a grace-controlled reality, and not a materialistic equation of 'having done X retreats or X psychedelic amount, and now I have it', no, deep humble embodied desire to surrender, being utterly self-less and loving and consistent practice are required.

Not that M. Ball, was not innocent or genuine in his journey, but possibly a bit naive and childish, and thus unconsciously also still a little ego-centric about it, he also used to have a half-baked materialistic presumption, which would fit this 'chemically induced enlightenment'. 

So he had a lot of deep experiences through 5-MeO, then had a permanent shift afterwards, talked about his enlightenment (fair enough, it was a genuine awakening right), but then was hit by the mere simplicity and depth that would be reached normally in meditation and going into the deeper consciousness through the gate of sleep.

That terrified him, it was a glimpse of deep awakening beyond his self-induced routine, and was or is still left a wreck because of it.

.

Yet Ramana among others talk about always being awake, God conscious, even in the deepest mode of sleep: http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/2008/05/true-nature-of-sleep.html

---

I know a teacher here in Holland whom experienced something similar, he had spend a lot of time on this journey, and at some point he was really good at self-induced meditation and creating 'blissful' states and whatnot, he started teaching, yet he was actually addicted to his meditation states, was not deeply awakened, and had a strong subtle spiritual ego, until some almost spiritual death event would overtake him,

and he was left in suicidal panic, despair and depression for quite some time,

and a lot of shame probably, because he proclaimed himself to be an enlightened teacher already,

imagine how painful that must be, trying to be a light to bring people home, to the ultimate, yet yourself losing faith in it.

Later it brought him to a deeper surrender and true enlightenment/awakening in his own words now, Ad Oostendorp is his name.

[Arhattobe]

@Salvijus : ) 

@AlwaysBeNice It being overrated is just a judgement you just made. One can say the same about non duality and awakening. You are just doing it with the post awakening process. 

[Inliytened1]

Yes this is an interesting topic.  One can have many mystical experiences and have many deep realizations about Reality, including discovering they ARE reality itself.  Rebirth of the ego shall yield much higher deeper levels of consciousness.  The ability to now see through the ego.  But seeing through the ego is not the same as purifying the ego.  But one must see through it first to begin the purification process.  That can take decades. But i would not say anything is impossible.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Inliytened1