Disagreements on Free Will

[GreenWoods]

I've been observing large disagreements by various teachers on free will. I think it depends on the perspective, I came up with these:

- 1. Perspective: Free will

This human organism makes decisions and has free will. This free will may be limited (due to environmental input, subconscious programming, astrology,...) but exists nevertheless. If I remember right, Leo said in his free will vs determinism video that all the cells of the body, or the organism as a whole makes the decisions. And I supppse free will can be attributed to that organism

- 2. Perspective: No free will

When I say "I have free will" I am actually saying "I believe that I am the ego and this ego has free will". The ego is an illusion, there is no one to have free will, thus you don't have / there is no free will

- 3. Perspective: Free will

Everything that is (and is not), is created by and is God. God doesn't create arbitrarily but consciously with infinite intelligence thus you may say he has free will. Everything that is, is God's will for otherwise it wouldn't be. As you are God, every decision you make is God's decision. And as God's decisions are from a place of free will, your/every decision is from a place of free will.

I however haven't yet had and enlightenment experience, let alone deep ones. So don't take my word, I can be totally mistaken/deluded.

What are your opinions on these perspectives?

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by GreenWoods

[SoonHei]

this is what's happening@GreenWoods

analogies can help you get a better understanding

 

God = Author of a Book = reader/writer of the book = for example JK Rowling

You = Character in that Book = for example Harry Potter

 

From Harry Potter's point of view, he has free will. he chooses to do this/that whatever. he chooses to say/think this/that etc... so on.

From the point of view of a reader, it is known that the entire plot (with all the choices for all characters including Harry Potter) is pre-determined... and no matter what seeming "choices" that harry potter makes within the story... the story as a whole (including those choices) was already written.

 

so the answer to your free will vs no free will = depends on which POV you are looking from.

POV of someone within the plot of book = they have free will

POV of someone reading the book / author = the characters do not have free will

 

@GreenWoods  does not have free will in reality but within in this plot/life/world, you have an apparent free will. just like in Harry Potter's experience, he would be certain he has free will ... but we know it is "apparent"

 

also. come to see that @GreenWoods cannot SEE the fact that he has no free will. just like Harry Potter cannot SEE the fact that he does not exist... and what gives him "life" is the reader, reading the book. Can Harry Potter ever know his author? 

no

because there is no REAL harry potter other than in the plot of that book.

[zeroISinfinity]

@SoonHei But what if Harry Potter is writing it's book endlessly while been adventuring at the same time. Also he is the book itself. ?

Then in some chapter he discovers this and his mind gets blown away. ?

Edited June 11, 2019 by zeroISinfinity

[SoonHei]

@zeroISinfinity that's certainly the case in this real world here

 

that's why above, at best, is an analogy

 

reality is a book which wrote itself, using itself, it is, itself all the characters and the construct of the world within the book, and it is aware of itself as the whole and all of it's seeming parts. 

 

as leo says, reality is a self-licking ice-cream cone and the cone is made out of itself.

[GreenWoods]

@SoonHei Thanks, that is quite a good analogy 

[Truth Addict]

My perspective: No free will.

Free will is the thought of being the author of thoughts. But where do thoughts come from? Nowhere/void.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Preetom]

12 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

My perspective: No free will.

Free will is the thought of being the author of thoughts. But where do thoughts come from? Nowhere/void.

Thoughts coming from void is yet another thought.

Fish in the sea 

[SoonHei]

@Truth Addict love it

 

also:

the ONE who thinks that he does or does not have free will... that ONE, is a thought!

"The Thinker" is the thought. There isn't an entity who is the THINKER... and then that THINKER thinks a thought. 

The thinking of all thoughts thunk by the thinker is ONE Movement.

different frames on a film reel coming into being when the light shines upon it - giving it "life" / existence.

 

when the above is grasped, brix are shat and liberation is tasted.

[Shadowraix]

Collapse the duality between the two. It points to the same thing at the end of the day. No free will arises when you create a duality between you and God, free will arises when you discover unity with God. Reconcile both perspectives as you wish. 

[SoonHei]

the spontaneous and intelligent stream of thoughts is simply and constantly/always known: (example of stream of thought below)

hmmm, do I have free will or not?

well, I can lift up my arm whenever I want...

i will lift my arm when I count to 4 in my head

1, 2, 3 ... FOUR * lifts arm on 4*

see... I have free will. i said what I will do and then I did that exactly when I said I would

okay.. another test... i will say hello when I count to 6...

1, 2, 3, 4.. hmmm.. actually, i also have free will to change my mind.. I will actually say hello when I count to 8.... so where was I .. oh yes.. 4, 5, ... SIX (not gonna say hello  ) ... 7.. EIGHT *says hello*

 

now based on the above... hard to argue and debate that there isn't a free will... (for that person/thinker's perspective... BECAUSE from that perspective, there actually IS free will - which from the LARGER perspective is only an apparent free will)

With a thought process like that... first decided to lift arm at 4 and did just that

then decided to say hello after when counting to 6... then changed it mid-way to counting to 8 and then saying it...

hmmmm... BUT is that really what's going on there? 

the first part is telling us.. that the thought stream is just flowing.. on it's own. it includes within it, thoughts which imply a thinker of them.. self referential thoughts... the "I" thoughts... free will.. hmmm.. it will be nice to see/observe from where is the decision made to count to 4.. or 6... and 8.. etc and either lift arm... or say hello. or some other word

was there free will in deciding that after counting to 4.. the person should lift their right foot instead.. or snap their finger.. or blink twice.. or whatever else? why lift their hand?

 

the more closely you investigate WHY the lift the arm  was chosen.. or to say the word hello 

the more you will come to see that a decider/chooser cannot be found... (because there isn't one!) ... a decider who has a list of things to select from and say... because really, the list would be infinite... there are an infinite # of things which could have been done after counting to 4.. but the thought stream which flows on it's own "selected" the act of lifting the arm... vs anything else... we cannot explain or find WHY... 

the thinker/ego will say... well, i chose to say it... yes... but WHY THE ARM... and he might say... well, that's just what came to my mind ... (exactly... what to say or not say.. or choose or not choose.. simply comes to mind  ... just like when we have all had those moments where we are thinking about something... and then say... IDEA! ) what is that but yet just another thought which appears in your mind... it just has a label/feeling of IDEA attached to it  

 

no free will.. apparent free will.. like a book/movie plot written out , with seeming choices

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by SoonHei
clarification +

[zeroISinfinity]

I am Just utterly completely fooled. ?️?

[Inliytened1]

As its been said here before reality is a paradox so its both simultaneously.  Its hard for us to wrap our finite minds around it because we can't wrap our minds around infinity!

But it is both. 

Duality/relativity - free will is relative to your perspective.

Non-duality/Absolute  - just pure Being / Isness - God in purest form..the formless.

[zeroISinfinity]

Not the Master of the Universe rather Master of the Veils Hahahhahaha haha. ???

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