The Existential Nature of 'Purpose'

[Preetom]

There was a thread about depersonalization few days ago that didnt have the good fortune to live long where a discussion was being initiated about 'purpose'. I thought about this more and decided to share here the barebones of it.

What I noticed is that 'purpose' and ''subjective self awareness" are antithesis to each other, exactly like ego is the antithesis of God(I am not going into absolute relativism here where God=ego. If we talk like that, then we can literally say anything and the entire mode of communication breaks apart).

So the bottomline is, if we notice carefully, that which has a hardwired purpose, doesn't have subjective self consciousness.

The purpose of a video game character is to chase trophies in that game context, purpose of automatic car is to drive safely, purpose of computer is to crunch number. But notice that even though all these 'entities' are exhibiting remarkable feat of intelligent activities, no scientist or philosopher will ever claim that these entities are simultaneously having a private, subjective, self conscious life. This is known as the hard problem of consciousness.

So we can see that exhibition of intelligence does not necessarily imply the presence of subjective self awareness.

Now what about us? We are verily self conscious beings. If we were made for a rigid purpose by some 'god', then we wouldn't have self consciousness because that would be antithetical and inefficient towards the ''purpose project''.

This is where things get interesting. My guess is, if science can ever 'create' a subjectively self consciousness being, that day science will simultaneously figure out God. Which is of course impossible because an objective operation like science is impotent in the subjective self conscious realm. 

Science is trying to  make human like robots which acts and reacts like human, even the looks and facial emotional expressions are humane. But is such a robot having a self consciousness life? No. This again goes into the dangerous territory of solipcism where the only subjective reality is mine and that is all there is. I can infer that "other people" might also having subjective private life depending on their humane actions and reactions, but the fact of the matter is, its impossible to know.

Now this again might open up entire can of worms if hardcore materialists retort and proclaim that subjectivity is an illusion due to its utter circularity and self-limitation and thus hard solid objectivity is all there is. Then that makes us verily robots; dead matter having an illusion of subjective life.

So from this materialistic paradigm, all purpose, value, birth, death gets null and void and almighty matter remains.

Now leaving that aside, from the consciousness paradigm, there is ONLY ONE purpose. And its a purpose of such a unique and radical nature that this purpose is already self-fulfilled and there is absolutely nothing outside this purpose. And that purpose is to simply Be. 

We human "beings"(ta da! Rings some bells?) are like miniatures of God who are fulfilling the only purpose of God, which is to just be. And as Rupert Spira says, through any and all experience, the one common thread is "I am aware". The rest called my life, my body, my things, my work etc are mere superimposition. Similarly the appearance of this entire universe is a superimposition on Gods purpose: Being. 

These superimpositions are seen as something real and distinct from being as long as the fact of the matter is not recognized and acknowledged. And by being i dont mean being this or that, but nondual being.

I'll leave it at that, feel free to share your insights about the existential nature of purpose.

[Natasha]

@Preetom On my lunch break have time to read your awesome lengthy post

15 hours ago, Preetom said:

And that purpose is to simply Be. 

Yes, this

[Preetom]

37 minutes ago, Natasha said:

@Preetom On my lunch break have time to read your awesome lengthy post

Yes, this

Thanks 

The absurdity of this whole situation trips me up. We are already fulfilling God's purpose 24/7 and nothing else.

We already Are. And we cant improve or degrade or move away from this purpose, ever. And yet we tend to forget and get confused!

Hope you had a nice meal

 

[Nahm]

@Preetom ♥️ Unconditional ??

[Natasha]

1 hour ago, Preetom said:

Thanks 

The absurdity of this whole situation trips me up. We are already fulfilling God's purpose 24/7 and nothing else.

We already Are. And we cant improve or degrade or move away from this purpose, ever. And yet we tend to forget and get confused!

Hope you had a nice meal

 

Yes, can't agree more

I do intermittent thing with eating. My lunch is usually quite simple with fruit and nuts or a green smoothie. And then I like to take a brief walk outside.

Who's the kid in your avatar?

[Truth Addict]

@Preetom

You were basically saying that it is what it is. Okay, nice, but why does it have to be the way it is? What is the purpose of it being this specific way and not some other way?

Infinity? Not so convincing to me.

Another interesting question: what is the purpose of purpose?

[Preetom]

33 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Preetom

You were basically saying that it is what it is. Okay, nice, but why does it have to be the way it is? What is the purpose of it being this specific way and not some other way?

Infinity? Not so convincing to me.

Your question implies that you've misunderstood my post. 

It all arises due to minconception about what you are considering 'being'. From your POV, you are translating being as being 'something'. Being this guy called truth living somewhere on earth and dealing with his idiosyncrasies of life.

But that's not being! Being is never about being this or that.

You are basically asking why i am being a guy called truth on earth instead of being a golden unicorn in heaven?

But you see, both these sets are imaginary superimposition over being. Existence itself.

A thing doesn't have being. Your 'hand' does not have being. There is no such thing as 'hand' that a scientist can objectivly prove to you.

That hand is an imagination superimposed on being. Just like in QM all physical properties and particles are superimposed phenomena. They are not really there at all! 

This 'material' universe is such a superimposition, an approximation over existence itself. 

So when you ask why we are being particularly this and not that, you are misunderstanding being and conflating the real(being) with unreal(superimposition).

From your POV you are being truth, from mine i'm being preetom. All these superimposition are felt as real and solid as long real Being is misunderstood.

33 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Preetom

Another interesting question: what is the purpose of purpose?

at this absolute god level the word 'purpose' becomes redundant, as there is nothing outside Being to contrast with it.

You are basically asking "why existence?"

Do you see why this question is a contradiction of terms? That question is itself borrowing existence from Being and questioning the source or purpose of being.

[Preetom]

1 hour ago, Natasha said:

Yes, can't agree more

 

Who's the kid in your avatar?

Probably a Chinese fat, baby memelord who posts videos of eating in social media ?

[Truth Addict]

@Preetom

I'm sorry, I don't follow.

The purpose of existence is for it just to be? I wouldn't even call that a purpose.

A purpose implies going from point A to point B (duality). But what you're saying is that point A is point B (nonduality) and that's not purpose, that's just how it is.

[Preetom]

1 minute ago, Truth Addict said:

@Preetom

I'm sorry, I don't follow.

The purpose of existence is for it just to be? I wouldn't even call that a purpose.

A purpose implies going from point A to point B (duality). But what you're saying is that point A is point B (nonduality) and that's not purpose, that's just how it is.

Exactly my point.

You imagine to go from point A to B, be this from that and you call that purpose.

While, gods infinite being purpose has the utmost unique and radical nature. Its a purpose that is already self fulfilled and complete which is mentioned in the op. So the word purpose eventually breaks down.

 

[Truth Addict]

@Preetom

Okay great! But then what's the point of even knowing that and talking about it? Someone is finding value in that realisation where in fact they shouldn't? Right?

Edited June 11, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Preetom]

14 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Preetom

Okay great! But then what's the point of even knowing that and talking about it? Someone is finding value in that realisation where in fact they shouldn't? Right?

Get absorbed in being and see how your views change.

There is qualitative difference between trying to talk absolute and actually sinking into being.

The more bitter and dry the map, the sweeter is the real deal.

If you are lucky, one day you might feel eternally grateful towards those ancient old souls who took the trouble to map out this stuff so eloquently in spite of being opposed by deluded fools over and over again. You'll be grateful for that the original message survived through the centuries among the sea of shit and this escape plan landed on your lap. It could very easily not be the case in this chaotic life

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Preetom

[Truth Addict]

@Preetom

I appreciate the lie (science) more than Truth in this case, because being is always the case and is not helpful. Being does not require my understanding or knowledge or gratitude.

9 hours ago, Preetom said:

Get absorbed in being.

Can I not be absorbed in being? Is that even possible? Because doing/thinking is still being.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Preetom]

1 hour ago, Truth Addict said:

@Preetom

Can I not be absorbed in being? Is that even possible? Because doing/thinking is still being.

Like i said, there is qualitative difference between just saying/preaching that and consciously being that. Yes conceptually speaking, doing/thinking is being. But when you are really being, it doesn't 'feel' like doing/thinking. One only calls that doing/thinking when being is seemingly lost, and so one can at best try to conceptualize being from memory.

Are you open to the possibility that the state of deep dreamless sleep is still prevailing right now? You didn't wake up from sleep this morning. Rather, this waking state merely got superimposed on that deep dreamless sleep. Like an extra layer superimposed on a base. That sleep 'state' is the closest to your being where no objective knowledge functions. When you sink into being, you can verify this.

Now there is qualitative difference in merely uttering that and actually sinking into that 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Preetom

[Truth Addict]

@Preetom

What about 'flow' moments? Like when you get in the vortex while doing some activity and just smoothly get in tune with everything.

[Preetom]

13 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Preetom

I appreciate the lie (science) more than Truth in this case, because being is always the case and is not helpful. Being does not require my understanding or knowledge or gratitude.

Okay cool. Good luck appreciating science.

But also see that there will be people who wont be satisfied with that, so let them go their way.

It takes nuance and considerable reasoning to start seeing whats actually going on here. You come to a point, when you realize that actually everyone is a spiritual seeker, whether one is pursuing lies or being doesn't matter.

When one wants a cookie, one is actually wanting enlightenment. When one wants the new iPhone, even though he never frames it like that, deep down he actually feels he will be infinite when he gets that iPhone.

When one sees this dynamic clearly, one is consciously a spiritual seeker. If not, then one is just living, shitting, fucking, eating, dying as long as life lasts 

[Preetom]

50 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Preetom

What about 'flow' moments? Like when you get in the vortex while doing some activity and just smoothly get in tune with everything.

That's a really good question. And i think it beautifully explains the endgame of all spirituality nicely.

What is known as 'flow' in common parlance, is you(consciousness) seeping and merging with your specific surrounding. It can be either through a hedonic activity like being engrossed in a video game, movie, sex etc or something less hedonic like being engrossed in a math problem or a physically exerting activity.

Notice what happens. The burden of sense of self is gone and thats exactly why we crave this flow state. The self destructive activities are not seen as such to one who is engaged in them. To him, it is the cessation of this burden of sense of self, which feels great!

Basically all our desires and fears are but urgent cries to drop this ego. All of survival instinct is but a cry to get relief from this sense of limited self. If one recognizes it, one is a spiritual seeker. If not, he is just another folk surviving through selfishness.

But this 'flow' is NOT endgame of spirituality. If it were, then the best spiritual practice would be to constantly bombard oneself with hedonic activities, extreme physical exertions(some tradition has it) or just sleeping all day(some tradition has it as yoga nidra).

This is clearly not the case! The end game of spirituality is not to merge your conscious existence to 'things' and your surrounding to make it absent for a while. But rather, it is about sinking and merging EVERYTHING back into your own being.

So 'being' as spiritual practice and the 'flow' while playing football, both tastes kinda qualitatively similar. But the process or mechanism is reverse to one another.

In 'flow' one  merges oneself in things, only to come back again as the sense of self as one can never part with ones existence.

While in spiritual being, things get merged into oneself...revealing the "eternal flow" which doesn't come and go

Edited June 12, 2019 by Preetom

[Mu_]

On 6/10/2019 at 9:08 PM, Preetom said:

There was a thread about depersonalization few days ago that didnt have the good fortune to live long where a discussion was being initiated about 'purpose'. I thought about this more and decided to share here the barebones of it.

What I noticed is that 'purpose' and ''subjective self awareness" are antithesis to each other, exactly like ego is the antithesis of God(I am not going into absolute relativism here where God=ego. If we talk like that, then we can literally say anything and the entire mode of communication breaks apart).

So the bottomline is, if we notice carefully, that which has a hardwired purpose, doesn't have subjective self consciousness.

The purpose of a video game character is to chase trophies in that game context, purpose of automatic car is to drive safely, purpose of computer is to crunch number. But notice that even though all these 'entities' are exhibiting remarkable feat of intelligent activities, no scientist or philosopher will ever claim that these entities are simultaneously having a private, subjective, self conscious life. This is known as the hard problem of consciousness.

So we can see that exhibition of intelligence does not necessarily imply the presence of subjective self awareness.

Now what about us? We are verily self conscious beings. If we were made for a rigid purpose by some 'god', then we wouldn't have self consciousness because that would be antithetical and inefficient towards the ''purpose project''.

This is where things get interesting. My guess is, if science can ever 'create' a subjectively self consciousness being, that day science will simultaneously figure out God. Which is of course impossible because an objective operation like science is impotent in the subjective self conscious realm. 

Science is trying to  make human like robots which acts and reacts like human, even the looks and facial emotional expressions are humane. But is such a robot having a self consciousness life? No. This again goes into the dangerous territory of solipcism where the only subjective reality is mine and that is all there is. I can infer that "other people" might also having subjective private life depending on their humane actions and reactions, but the fact of the matter is, its impossible to know.

Now this again might open up entire can of worms if hardcore materialists retort and proclaim that subjectivity is an illusion due to its utter circularity and self-limitation and thus hard solid objectivity is all there is. Then that makes us verily robots; dead matter having an illusion of subjective life.

So from this materialistic paradigm, all purpose, value, birth, death gets null and void and almighty matter remains.

Now leaving that aside, from the consciousness paradigm, there is ONLY ONE purpose. And its a purpose of such a unique and radical nature that this purpose is already self-fulfilled and there is absolutely nothing outside this purpose. And that purpose is to simply Be. 

We human "beings"(ta da! Rings some bells?) are like miniatures of God who are fulfilling the only purpose of God, which is to just be. And as Rupert Spira says, through any and all experience, the one common thread is "I am aware". The rest called my life, my body, my things, my work etc are mere superimposition. Similarly the appearance of this entire universe is a superimposition on Gods purpose: Being. 

These superimpositions are seen as something real and distinct from being as long as the fact of the matter is not recognized and acknowledged. And by being i dont mean being this or that, but nondual being.

I'll leave it at that, feel free to share your insights about the existential nature of purpose.

Nice post, things I've thought to death of in the past with conclusions that have changed and continue, but wanted to chim in a few things for those who bother to read this to muddle over.

First isn't materialism only proven to itself by the subjective verification of its actuality?  I mean there isn't a "True" objective vantage point one can stand to see material as actual, or even actual by its own definition.  It's only verified by the experience itself of it.....  I made my first post on this forum going into this view.

About science creating life with subjective experience, well it wouldn't surprise me if it happened.  Scientists are not separate from the hand of god.  I see no reason that we could not reach a point in which some scientists accidentally put some organic material say a tree fungus/mushroom, some human brain goo, and some circuit board like stuff, and then boom just like subjective consciousness somehow was born on earth, we accidentally do the same thing in a lab, and then we reverse engineer it.  And perhaps we are not "Creating" the subjective capacity, we are allowing one that is already present to be able to speak through a new form or perhaps its a one that feels like it was just born and doesn't know what it is....  Just some food for thought.

In regards to your statement the universe is a "just Be" or Being and I know your not saying this exactly, but I just want to stress that this is also a idea of sorts one in which is often heard and then creates people doing nothing, or sitting, trying to empty ones self of mind, feelings, thoughts, intentions, desires, interests.  And this is not Being (well it is of sorts, but the being of doing that, and not the Being of surrender allowing creativity, love, interest, exploration, adventure to arise spontaneously, and yes sometimes the expression of surrender is to sit, and let go of cravings and urges that are pain inducing, and more.... and dont let yourself go into shit I'm not doing IT correctly). 

 

Good post.

[Preetom]

On 6/12/2019 at 9:50 PM, Mu_ said:

Nice post, things I've thought to death of in the past with conclusions that have changed and continue, but wanted to chim in a few things for those who bother to read this to muddle over.

First isn't materialism only proven to itself by the subjective verification of its actuality?  I mean there isn't a "True" objective vantage point one can stand to see material as actual, or even actual by its own definition.  It's only verified by the experience itself of it.....  I made my first post on this forum going into this view.

About science creating life with subjective experience, well it wouldn't surprise me if it happened.  Scientists are not separate from the hand of god.  I see no reason that we could not reach a point in which some scientists accidentally put some organic material say a tree fungus/mushroom, some human brain goo, and some circuit board like stuff, and then boom just like subjective consciousness somehow was born on earth, we accidentally do the same thing in a lab, and then we reverse engineer it.  And perhaps we are not "Creating" the subjective capacity, we are allowing one that is already present to be able to speak through a new form or perhaps its a one that feels like it was just born and doesn't know what it is....  Just some food for thought.

but that is the knowledge limitation!

How can a scientist ever verify that his/her pet doll with brain goo has subjective self consciousness?? He/she can ONLY know their own subjective awareness.

There is no proof/verification for self existence, subjective self awareness. There cannot be. This subjective self awareness goes way beyond any mode of knowledge or proof.

Thats exactly why I said the day subjective awareness gets proven/created, that day scientists will prove God. And of course that will never happen ?

[possibilities]

Kicking ass is your only purpose.

i doubt you’d like my long answer as it’s a really long kickass answer.