Leo I disagree. Parental love - there is more than meets the eye.

[Freyah]

@Leo Gura

Hi Leo,

I read your blog thoughts on unconditional love. I really like the post, especially the final insight. ...Although I think you have missed the significance of parental love. Raising children can absolutely be a path to unconditional love. 

You say “Of course I will love a calm, smart, pretty child more than I will love a noisy, angry, ugly, crippled child....”

Most parents will tell you that’s not the case. Unconditional love for your child hits you anyway. No matter how crippled or noisy they are. 

Life can never be the same after having a child as their wellbeing becomes more important than your own, no matter how they turn out. The times that you think your child is ‘calm, smart and pretty’ might be infrequent, although you still love them intensely. Even when they throw up everywhere, or have tantrums. Perhaps even when they get expelled from school or thrown in jail.

In terms of unconditional love you say: “You'd have to really not care any more about living, dying, or enduring all sorts of hardship, suffering, and annoyance”  Well, there are a great number of parents of seriously unwell children that would willingly trade their child’s suffering for their own lives if it would help (and the child doesn’t have to have certain ‘positive attributes’ for parents to feel like this)...

And have you come across many parents of special needs kids? I worked in this field and most of those parents have become the most selfless people you would ever meet. Their kids can be noisy, difficult, angry, unable to look after themselves (and unlikely to in the future), yet the parents love them unconditionally and fiercely, and their own lives are very difficult because of it. (There are some stunning cases of selfless love out there.... it was a humbling job to meet these parents.) If their kids were more able and aesthetically pleasing, they still could not have been loved more. 

There are intense lessons to be learned in one’s interactions with our own children (and spouse) in mundane everyday life if we care to pay attention, (even in the piles of muddy Saturday sport laundry and chaotic kitchen) ....practicing and experiencing unconditional love can be one of them. And kids will make sure your ego gets chipped down, (and your heart opens) in the most challenging of ways, there is no doubt about it. 

Being a parent is a definite spiritual path if you want it to be, a challenging one, and an easily overlooked one..... And I thought maybe you had, in your comments, underestimated parental love. Just sayin’..... 

 

[Leo Gura]

@Freyah You have to understand that ALL action in the universe is ultimately love. Just in various forms. Sometimes twisted ones.

Is a parent's love genuine love? Yes, but it is still quite narrow and conditional. There are many things your child can do which will make you stop loving it.

And certainly not all parents love their children. Some parents are much better at it than others. But even the best parents still don't know what universal unconditional love is. They know love only within that narrow context of their child.

Wait till you experience God's infinite universal unconditional love. Then you'll understand why I say that parental love (although good) is like a drop compared to an ocean.

Yes, I agree that parenting can be a big growing opportunity. But it will not deliver you to Absolute Love. That requires spiritual practice.

What's really amazing is when you realize that murderers, thieves, and genocidal dictators are all acting out of love.

Love is as diverse as all the objects in the universe.

The reason I say that things I say is because I am trying to point you towards discovering Absolute Love -- a thing which you have not yet discovered.

[SerpaeTetra]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

. There are many things your child can do which will make you stop loving it.

 

This is a false statement (for me).  There are experiences of a parent that are hard to put into words much like Gods love; It can't be communicated, and unless you have that experience, you will never know that type of love.

Edited June 10, 2019 by SerpaeTetra

[Leo Gura]

@SerpaeTetra Be careful. Lest your love be put to the test. Life can put you through some brutal tests. Many parents would break.

And even if you love your child very much under all conditions. That's still such a narrow love. What about the other 1 billion children on this planet? Why don't you love them too?

[SerpaeTetra]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@SerpaeTetra Be careful. Lest your love be put to the test. Life can put you through some brutal tests. Many parents would break.

And even if you love your child very much under all conditions. That's still such a narrow love. What about the other 1 billion children on this planet? Why don't you love them too?

Actually, there are about 8 billion children in the world.  I love them as well...  Try extending your love Leo, and you will find love within your Ego, as well as your eternal soul.

[DrewNows]

@SerpaeTetra do animals know unconditional love? 

[SerpaeTetra]

17 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

@SerpaeTetra do animals know unconditional love? 

you tell me

[DrewNows]

7 minutes ago, SerpaeTetra said:

you tell me

hmm you be the judge after watching this video at the bottom of the comment link  

The human mind can easily mistake its interpretations of unconditional love as the actual Love because everything is within Love, even fear and hate are part of Love, but not the Whole as they are a perceptual view 

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by DrewNows

[Preetom]

If you say ''parental love'' is a potent doorway to spiritual growth, then literally everything and every action can be a doorway to spiritual growth. Being parents doesnt automatically make one a soon to be enlightened fella. Similarly the opposite is also true where one could do so called spiritual activies and yet remain deluded day after day if not becoming more, in other words, typical religious circles.

Because its not about the content or process, its about whether the truth of consciousness is being deliberately appreciated or not.

When someone becomes a parent, their sense of sense aka the ego merely expands from their own body and includes their childrens body as well. For the ego, it literally is living through that one child's body, MY child's body, while the rest 1 billion children doesn't matter because they are not included within my sense of ego self.

No wonder parental love is  irrational, impulsive and really a very strong force of nature. Because it is the force of ego in its most raw and potent form! The same ego force that irrationally loves my own body-mind no matter how much of a devil i become, that same force now merely extends towards my offsprings.

So the distortion of unconditional love called ''parental love" is a specific filter or flavor. It is there as long as the ego is there. For the liberated, all such filters and flavors of love is seen through.

And of course i as ego/devil will deny this. Or else how will I explain the fact that I love my body-mind a lot more than Leos body-mind?

Edited June 10, 2019 by Preetom

[Merkabah]

@Leo Gura It's because those other babies weren't shot out of my body. There is a clear biological stake people have in their offspring. Their progeny is in effect their own fucking cell!! They love themselves................! Now, this affection is no way near as strong from the other end, meaning the offspring's love for the parent doesn't even come anywhere close. Basically the children are part of the parents' bodies but not the other way around!! However, metaphysically speaking, sperm and egg might be all part of a big false narrative and in that case ALL the above goes out the window!!!

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Merkabah said:

@Leo Gura It's because those other babies weren't shot out of my body. There is a clear biological stake people have in their offspring. Their progeny is in effect their own fucking cell!! They love themselves................! Now, this affection is no way near as strong from the other end, meaning the offspring's love for the parent doesn't even come anywhere close. Basically the children are part of the parents' bodies but not the other way around!! However, metaphysically speaking, sperm and egg might be all part of a big false narrative and in that case ALL the above goes out the window!!!

What you have yet to realize is that the entire universe is your body, every grain of sand on every beach of every planet is your child.

Not figuratively. Literally!

There is nothing which is not your direct offspring.

When you realize that, you will understand Absolute Love.

Limiting yourself to your body is the grand illusion which we are here to overcome.

This is the larger reality to which you are being pointed to.

Discover Absolute Love and you will become a better parent too.

[Umar_uk]

42 minutes ago, Merkabah said:

@Leo Gura It's because those other babies weren't shot out of my body. There is a clear biological stake people have in their offspring. Their progeny is in effect their own fucking cell!! They love themselves................! Now, this affection is no way near as strong from the other end, meaning the offspring's love for the parent doesn't even come anywhere close. Basically the children are part of the parents' bodies but not the other way around!! However, metaphysically speaking, sperm and egg might be all part of a big false narrative and in that case ALL the above goes out the window!!!

You cannot Love another because all there is is Love. Love has no opposite. There is no ''other'' in LOVE. LOVE IS all alone all ONE.

 

Hate is just Love hating itself. . hate cannot destroy Love no more than the dark can put out the Light...in the presence of Light darkness has no other choice but to recede, in fact the dark is completely engulfed by the presence of Light. Darkness is only possible because of Light. There is no shadow without a Light to cast the shadow. So what looks like darkness is actually Light because Light is all there is, Love is just another word for Light.

 

Loving another is relative which is based upon conditions. Absolute Love is free of all conditions, it's absolute unconditioned freedom to BE... In the absolute sense, LOVE is always present, presenting itself as and through life living itself infinitely for eternity right now nowhere. Nothing belongs to you not even your children. Everything is you already.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Umar_uk

[mandyjw]

If you are a parent here check out Shefali Tsabary, she is SO good!

Letting the ego extend to your children can be a really big trap in parenting. It's easy to define yourself or your worth by how you are doing as a parent. That's why some parents demand that their kids get a college education and we place all kinds of unconscious expectations on our kids. 

I think that God gives you what you need to awaken, and if you have kids they will be the very ones designed to test you for all you are worth. I was extremely shy, easily embarrassed and hated to draw attention to myself. So God gave me an autistic son that can be a really sweet normal kid, but at the Christmas concert, or in public when he becomes unregulated God ONLY knows what he will do. There are only so many times that you feel like you are going to curl up and die of embarrassment before you realize it's not quite as bad as you initially thought. 

[outlandish]

Having children is absolutely an opening for the opportunity to experience unconditional love. It's not guaranteed, just like 5-MeO-DMT doesn't guarantee you will experience enlightenment, but the opportunity is there. When you're a parent it blows your mind to realize how prevalent this is. It's really difficult to see from the other side.

A moment that hit me like a lightning bolt in my life was driving home from the hospital with my brand new baby and seeing all these people walking down the street, and realizing that every single one of them had a fucking mom or dad who loved them unconditionally, and for those who were never lucky enough to have that, that god loved them unconditionally anyways. As cheesy as that sounds.

You could nitpick that it's not true unconditional love - it is directed at your child/children specifically for example, so it's conditional on them being them. If your children were someone else's children you might not feel it. Perhaps true unconditional love has no boundaries - no conditions - including eliminating the category of "my child" and "not my child".

Have you ever talked to refugee families or immigrants who went through great strife, or war, or risked death, imprisonment, abandoning property, qualifications, privilege to move to a better land? Most of them will tell you they did it to give their children a better life. Have you heard interviews with parents of convicted murderers? Usually, they still love their child, despite this ultimate fuckup.

I know a woman who's daughter is now a heroin junky and prostitute, she's been living like that for 10 years. Missing teeth, homeless, probably has all kinds of disease, won't come home, won't be helped. I don't doubt that she loves her daughter any less than I love my son, I can see that when I talk to her, and it's so painful for her to see her daughter live like that. 

As a parent, you want the best for your children, your priorities become aligned towards their growth, thriving, right the way up the maslow's pyramid. There's no promise that the parent is skillful in this goal, or that they know when to step back to allow the growth to unfold naturally, but the alignment is 100%, and it's not conditional on their behaviour, their looks, abilities or disabilities, talents or defects etc.

If there was a choice to drink poison or give it to your kid, there would be no question. It's not a logical choice like "I'm a parent now, I better start thinking about my kids", it's like a deep rewrite to your OS.

Watch or read The Road. Before you're a parent that story looks like a post-apocalypse story. After, it's a love story.

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, outlandish said:

Before you're a parent that story looks like a post-apocalypse story. After, it's a love story.

?

[Freyah]

@Leo Gura

“Is a parent's love genuine love? Yes, but it is still quite narrow and conditional. There are many things your child can do which will make you stop loving it.”

Leo, you be careful too. I think you have to admit to yourself you don’t know what you are talking about here. Your statement shows this.... entertain the possibility you don’t..... @outlandish has a great explanation in this thread and he says “It is like a Rewrite of your OS”  that’s a great analogy.

Much like being stuck in scientifically materialism (as you often mention) doesn’t allow you to understand to understand the deep shift of Knowing in spirituality (one type of OS rewrite); the same can be said for the consciousness shift in being a parent that makes you willing to die to save your child. If you say “oh that’s just survival” that is much like saying “oh that’s just neurotransmitters” when it comes to spiritual experiences. 

“And even if you love your child very much under all conditions. That's still such a narrow love. What about the other 1 billion children on this planet? Why don't you love them too?”

It’s true I don’t/can’t- not in the same way. Although I love kids, there are only two I would willingly die for, it’s true....the ones I raised from young (DNA irrelevant here, they could have been adopted) 

Millions of mothers do this for the entire human race, and this collective group is the expression of Universal Infinite Selfless Love.... In the form of parents... whether they know it or not. It is impossibly for me to wipe a million asses even if I wanted to! Each ass-wipe is an act of selfless love...and thank goodness for the OS rewrite to make this happen unflinchingly and willingly

@Preetom 

“So the distortion of unconditional love called ''parental love" is a specific filter or flavor. It is there as long as the ego is there. For the liberated, all such filters and flavors of love is seen through.”

How do think a liberated parent acts? Do they give up all parental responsibilities because they now can’t choose who to devote their time and care to... ? Is it that they love all children (and every expression of consciousness) equally, so to care for *just one* aspect of it somehow shows a lack of love for everything else or is somehow egoic....?

Believe me, if the ego remains intact in the early days of parenting... then is after an absolutely hiding in the future....everything you thought you were (good, kind, patient, cool, clever, successful, spiritual, deep, zen ) you will find you are not... (but it’s a good time, really! )

“The reason I say that things I say is because I am trying to point you towards discovering Absolute Love -- a thing which you have not yet discovered”

Thanks for saying the things you say @Leo Gura ! Your hard work, and generosity in sharing is really inspiring and stimulating. Grateful.

[Inliytened1]

I don't think anyone stated that Love for your child was not Love.  But its only a part of the whole.  Absolute or Unconditonal Love is exactly what it implies.

If a gang of individuals broke into your home, raped you, and murdered your child could you love them?

One must move past the ego for that. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Inliytened1

[Freyah]

@Inliytened1

...An awful scenario, however the rest of your life would be wrecked if you couldn’t forgive them, and understand them...

But you’ve misunderstood the main gist of the original post- that is Leo’s apparently misunderstanding of parental love. -It’s not about whether it’s love or not.

Leo has indicated he thinks there are things a child can do to make you stop loving it. 

Alas, someone’s child has committed the atrocity you describe above....how do you think parent of that murderer/rapist copes?.....

[Inliytened1]

@Freyah Regardless of what he said this is what Unconditional or Absolute Love is.

Can you love those individuals?  Answer Honestly.

[Freyah]

@Inliytened1 honest answer is easy- I don’t know.... cant possibly say if I could.