The trickiness of Projection

[Shadowraix]

I'm not sure if I am the only one to see this, but the topic of projecting onto others is an interesting one. You see one tell another to stop projecting then they continue to project onto them and it goes back and forth. Projection seems to be a necessary part of communication and yet we get so defensive on projections against us but not when we do it to others. This can become a very easy defense mechanism. To just say "No, you are wrong! Stop projecting!" without asking yourself if there is any truth to their claims. 

Projections are a great way to help us become aware of our own behaviors especially when introduced from outside perspectives, but it gets really ugly when the ego uses it to attack and/or defend.

[electroBeam]

Yes and it's impossible to communicate to someone without projecting. You must make statements and claims, even about observations(a number of times I've seen the word observation used on this forum incorrectly - they should say inference or better yet hypothesis) and when you make those claims, you inherently project. Furthermore the others will read your post in a different light to you which is their own projection.

I've come to the conclusion that the following games are pointless and should just be ignored:

- telling people you 'didn't say something' such as a word or belief, regardless of whether you did or didn't

- telling people you don't believe in something

- telling people to stop projecting beliefs onto you(they must, that's the only way they can communicate to you).

- Telling people they didn't understand what you said or wrote(they pretty much don't every time, even when you articulated your point very well).

[CreamCat]

27 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

telling people to stop projecting beliefs onto you(they must, that's the only way they can communicate to you).

There can be exceptions.

[AnTe]

@Shadowraix the problem isnt in the projection as we all do it for necessary feedback purposes. the problem is humans reluctance to reflect and go beyond the surface where they can think without automatically reacting or responding. it's because most of us haven't learned to relate properly nor value another's perspective, we mainly only see and focus on our own which is only half of reality at best. 

[Shadowraix]

3 minutes ago, AnTe said:

@Shadowraix the problem isnt in the projection as we all do it for necessary feedback purposes. the problem is humans reluctance to reflect and go beyond the surface where they can think without automatically reacting or responding. it's because most of us haven't learned to relate properly nor value another's perspective, we mainly only see and focus on our own which is only half of reality at best. 

Yes this is exactly what I was trying to say. ?

[Bill W]

I'm starting to think we are all on the projection scale and that it is not static, but variable, depending on a host of factors present at the time of the communication with the other or others.

My thinking here is that

10/10 on the projection scale = Hostile and/or passive aggressive projection onto another without any meaningful insight you are doing this. Loads of self-denial, the other person is always to blame, and the projection intensity is easily enough to fracture relationships and even lead to physical violence, and at the minimum psychological harm if the other is vulnerable to this. 

1/10 on the projection scale = Projection is able to be self-corrected or self-managed as it happens. There is insight, self-control and immediate reflection to limit or avoid any damage at all to the quality and authenticity of the communication/interaction with the other. 

[Shadowraix]

@Bill W I like this approach to looking at it. 

I find the closer I get to a 10 the less awareness I have over my actions. The sheer power of awareness itself is amazing. 

[Bill W]

@Shadowraix I know. It's scary isn't it. On the same day I can go from 1/10 to about 8/10 - It really pains me when I realise later on I was at an 8/10. I can feel almost ashamed. Within a few seconds of the interaction I can realise I was at 8/10. Some times even half-way through the interaction I realise this, but the train has left the platform, and it's almost too late due to poor self-control. One of my dreams about self-actualisation is that I catch an 8/10 reaction at the moment it arrives and short-circuit it. Self control at the point of "attack", what a skill that is to have! I'm chasing it!

 

[AnTe]

@Bill W that's almost accurate and I understand what you're trying to say but how you described 1/10 is actually more like 5/10. the easiest way to explain that is 10/10 is extremely extroverted and 1/10 is extremely introverted. we want to be in the middle or find ourselves the proper threshold and our most balanced point. 

[DrewNows]

Give us a clearer understanding of how and why we project: 

Good topic! 

[Leo Gura]

The only trick is to be conscious of one's own projections.

Which of course no one wants to do.

[Shadowraix]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The only trick is to be conscious of one's own projections.

Which of course no one wants to do.

Agreed. It's very easy to turn the idea of projection into a nasty ego game. Using it as a defense mechanism is quite interesting. The ego tries to adapt well. 

Edited June 8, 2019 by Shadowraix

[Leo Gura]

@Shadowraix It's whole purpose to begin with was the defense of ego. Of course the more egotistical a person is the more they project and the more they deny that they project.

Projection cannot work without also the denial that one is doing it. Hence people who do it the most have no idea they are doing it. To them it simply feels they are right.

[Rilles]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@Shadowraix It's whole purpose to begin with was the defense of ego. Of course the more egotistical a person is the more they projection and the more they deny that they project.

So make a video on Shadow Work already!

[Shadowraix]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Shadowraix It's whole purpose to begin with was the defense of ego. Of course the more egotistical a person is the more they project and the more they deny that they project.

Projection cannot work without also the denial that one is doing it. Hence people who do it the most have no idea they are doing it. To them it simply feels they are right.

How do you reconcile this when you call things foolish and devilry? Any statement on anything seems to be a projection. Even what I just said. Are you just always conscious of the relativity and feel no need to appear correct to them? 

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

Any statement on anything seems to be a projection.

This is too loose a definition of projection. Projection is a very specific thing. Not every statement is projection. By taking that sloppy stance you dilute the meaning of the term and actually normalize projection.

The bottom line is that I and others can always be wrong about things. I never say I'm perfect in my assessments of situations. When I call someone a devil usually it's not a projection but something that's quite obvious they're doing. Of course sometimes it could be a projection. But mostly it isn't.

When you see that a child is behaving foolishly by playing with matches, that's not projection. That's your higher wisdom and experience warning you of an impending problem. It would be foolish of you to allow him to play with those matches. The problem there is legitimate, he cannot see it, but you can. There is a good reason we don't let kids play with matches.

The whole point of having wisdom is that you're able to accurately distinguish between foolish and wise actions. It's not always perfect. But you can get pretty damn good at it. That's why experience is so valuable. So when I call someone a devil, that's usually coming from a deep set of experience. I can see the epistemic traps that people are falling into which they are not able to see yet. Often because I have fallen into those traps myself in the past.

[Shadowraix]

@Leo Gura I see. Thanks for taking the time to respond. How would you define projection then? I wouldn't doubt my understanding of it is flawed. Or perhaps you have a video on it I missed I could watch? 

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

@Leo Gura I see. Thanks for taking the time to respond. How would you define projection then? I wouldn't doubt my understanding of it is flawed. Or perhaps you have a video on it I missed I could watch? 

Projection is when you judge another for the very same thing which you yourself are doing. The judgment is an exteriorization of your own guilt and self-judgment. But by projecting this bad trait out onto some "other" you can avoid looking at it within yourself.

The classic example is this:

Let's say you were raised to believe that homosexuality is a sin for which you will get sent to hell. But you find yourself having mild homosexual urges. But you cannot admit this to yourself so instead to get angry at some flaming homosexual on TV. So you start to badmouth that homosexual and you vow to punch him in the face if you ever meet him in person. All of this is really just you denying your own homosexuality.

Scientific studies show that men who hate homosexuals are more likely to be sexually aroused when they are shown naked photographs of men than those who do not hate homosexuals.

Another example would be: If you're acting like a selfish devil and you start calling other people selfish devils, that's projection. Or if you're cheating on your taxes but you get angry that rich people don't pay enough taxes, that's projection.

For example: Donald Trump will call any news he doesn't like Fake News when in fact he is the biggest purveyor of fake news. He will call people liars when he is the biggest liar there ever was. He will call investigations of him biased because he is the most biased President there ever was. He will complain about rigged elections because he himself was rigging the election.

In general the ego wants to be as selfish as possible while denying that it is in fact being selfish at all (because this allows it to be even more selfish!) So the best way to do that is to divert attention way from its own selfishness by point out the selfishness of others. If everyone around me is so selfish, then I'm actually an angel. And that's precisely the self-image I want to have so that I can justify being more selfish. If I see myself as the least selfish person in the world, that suits me just great. Now I got a lot of selfishness to make up for Now I can steal, rape, and kill without guilt.

[Shadowraix]

@Leo Gura That clears it up a lot for me. Thanks. ?

I was previously thinking of it as a way people take in things, filter it through their own mind, and then "project" it back out on others assuming to be correct. And you are right this very loose compared to your more nuanced definition. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by Shadowraix

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

I was previously thinking of it as a way people take in things, filter it through their own mind, and then "project" it back out on others

That could also be a sort of projection.