Magickal beings

[Buba]

Being an atheist and materialist, I found it shocking that the hallucinations are claimed to be real by strong meditation practitioners. Even down-to-Earth Daniel Ingram says a person cannot say those are not real.

I have had hallucinations, tactile and auditory, many times. I always considered them as errors in my brain and witnessed a medication stopping them. So they had no powers. They were an illusion. 

But now sane people claim they are real and I am confused. Yesterday when I was meditating I got again this paranoia that some creature was approaching me behind. This time I did not think it was an error in my brain, I believed it might be real as other people claimed so. I was so scared I could barely meditate. I wanted to stop meditating, but forced myself to go on.

What are your opinions on hallucinations or meditation induced hallucinations?

[iTommy]

@Buba

I'd say that "hallucinations" are very real. A dream is just as real, as your daily "waking" experience (the waking experience is usually just more vivid) IMO. If you took a substance like N,N-DMT, this experience might even seem more "real" than your everyday sober experience. I assume that we call "hallucinations", hallucinations, because they don't fit into our paradigm of "normal" day-to-day experience of life, that the majority of people experiences. You could say that your normal day-to-day experience is also an illusion, which it in fact is. You're/We are constantly hallucinating, one small change in chemicals or other stuff in the brain, and your experience can change dramatically beyond logical/conceptual comprehension. 

It's just that our daily sober experience is the accepted paradigm of "realness" amongst most people, since most have only a tangible connection to this physicality since childhood, and not experienced other states of consciousness. 

Maybe it helps you to ask for guidance (spirit guides, ascended masters, higher beings, angels etc.) and protection before meditation in a sincere way. You don't have to believe in that, maybe just try it out and see if it makes you feel better. If it makes you more comfortable during meditations and less worried/scared, then that's good.

[Buba]

18 minutes ago, iTommy said:

@Buba

I'd say that "hallucinations" are very real. A dream is just as real, as your daily "waking" experience (the waking experience is usually just more vivid) IMO. If you took a substance like N,N-DMT, this experience might even seem more "real" than your everyday sober experience. I assume that we call "hallucinations", hallucinations, because they don't fit into our paradigm of "normal" day-to-day experience of life, that the majority of people experiences. You could say that your normal day-to-day experience is also an illusion, which it in fact is. You're/We are constantly hallucinating, one small change in chemicals or other stuff in the brain, and your experience can change dramatically beyond logical/conceptual comprehension. 

It's just that our daily sober experience is the accepted paradigm of "realness" amongst most people, since most have only a tangible connection to this physicality since childhood, and not experienced other states of consciousness. 

Maybe it helps you to ask for guidance (spirit guides, ascended masters, higher beings, angels etc.) and protection before meditation in a sincere way. You don't have to believe in that, maybe just try it out and see if it makes you feel better. If it makes you more comfortable during meditations and less worried/scared, then that's good.

Ego also seems very real, feeling of incompleteness also seems very real. If there was another realm to which people with mental illnesses or drugged states had access to, then people would have the same hallucinations. 2 drugged friends in the same place at the same time dont see the same hallucinations.

I have had hallucinations and I know how real they seem. I also have Borderline Personality Disorder and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, and their symptoms also seem very very real. The person who washes his hands for hours and cannot stop despite hands bleeding, also feels the urge very very real.

[iTommy]

1 hour ago, Buba said:

Ego also seems very real, feeling of incompleteness also seems very real. If there was another realm to which people with mental illnesses or drugged states had access to, then people would have the same hallucinations. 2 drugged friends in the same place at the same time dont see the same hallucinations.

I have had hallucinations and I know how real they seem. I also have Borderline Personality Disorder and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, and their symptoms also seem very very real. The person who washes his hands for hours and cannot stop despite hands bleeding, also feels the urge very very real.

So, what is "real"?

[Pouya]

@Buba 

Lets say your brain is in a normal waking state without any substance.

What is perception? of what you see, feel, hear, ect?

What is the essence of it? What is it made out of?

If you become very very present and reach a level of no-mind (less thoughts) and deeply question this, you will realize that the physical feeling of whatever you feel, has the same essence of your dream, of a substance's hallucinations, of deep dreamless sleep. It's something very very subtle and empty.

Science likes to zoom in untill they reach a limit. Atoms, sub atomic particles, quarks, strings, whatever comes even after that. Maybe it never ends. Meybe everything is made of something lesser and also mades up something more.

What if there was no end to "what's something made of" and "pure awareness/nothingness" be the ultimate substance?

It really must be experienced.

Materialism is right in physical domains. Yes if you shoot your brain this perception will be gone. But it's not ultimately true. Nonduality goes beyond it.

[tsuki]

3 hours ago, Buba said:

What are your opinions on hallucinations or meditation induced hallucinations?

How are hallucinations less real than reality that you are hallucinating right now?
If you didn't call your everyday experience "everyday", how would you tell the difference between what's reality and what's illusion?

[tedens]

Its all real that You see~experience and simultaneously is an illusion. Do the practice rather than suggest on opinions and You will grasp that.

[Nahm]

@Buba Look to psychology, not mysticism. 

[Salvijus]

I think you should make a clear distinction what is existencial and what is psychological. In this case your feeling of someone behind you was psychological so... It's not okey. And medications are not okey in a long run also. 

There're ways to ground yourself so much that what is real and psychological is absolutely clear. Mind will not be flying into all kinds of imaginations, it will be stable and balanced the way it should. I think you would benefit from yoga immensely. 

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Salvijus

[Jkris]

@Buba @Buba Get treatment.Have a heathy body mind.And then pursue enlightenment.

Get advice only from physchiatrists,physcologists.

The forum is not a place to seek advice regarding treatment.

Allready you are deluded and how can you trust your own mind ?

Dont try to be your own physchiatrist.Dont study articles on internet.

Please find a good dr and get treated.Help yourself.

You can medidate seek truth after your brain imbalance functioning is cured.

[Nahm]

@Buba The beliefs of the atheist run deep enough to miss it is the magical being. Amazing really.

[Buba]

1 hour ago, iTommy said:

So, what is "real"?

The laws which have always been consistent. It happened to me several times that during sleep I figured out that I was in a dream, because of inconsistencies occurred. But I have never found inconsistency in sober life. 

2 hours ago, Pouya said:

@Buba 

Lets say your brain is in a normal waking state without any substance.

What is perception? of what you see, feel, hear, ect?

What is the essence of it? What is it made out of?

I dont know.

Quote

If you become very very present and reach a level of no-mind (less thoughts) and deeply question this, you will realize that the physical feeling of whatever you feel, has the same essence of your dream, of a substance's hallucinations, of deep dreamless sleep. It's something very very subtle and empty.

Science likes to zoom in untill they reach a limit. Atoms, sub atomic particles, quarks, strings, whatever comes even after that. Maybe it never ends. Meybe everything is made of something lesser and also mades up something more.

What if there was no end to "what's something made of" and "pure awareness/nothingness" be the ultimate substance?

It really must be experienced.

Materialism is right in physical domains. Yes if you shoot your brain this perception will be gone. But it's not ultimately true. Nonduality goes beyond it.

So if everything is imagination of my brain, then what is my brain? If my family in reality and monsters in my dream are the same then why do bother to try to live a better, healthier life?

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

How are hallucinations less real than reality that you are hallucinating right now?
If you didn't call your everyday experience "everyday", how would you tell the difference between what's reality and what's illusion?

If you hallucinate a kid drowning in the sea and other people assure you that there is no kid in the sea, will you still dive to save the kid?

1 hour ago, tedens said:

Its all real that You see~experience and simultaneously is an illusion. Do the practice rather than suggest on opinions and You will grasp that.

The notion that creatures once I considered as hallucinations might be real and harm me, scares me and halts my practice.

58 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Buba Look to psychology, not mysticism. 

Why do sane people say those monsters are real?

48 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I think you should make a clear distinction what is existencial and what is psychological. In this case your feeling of someone behind you was psychological so... It's not okey. And medications are not okey in a long run also. 

There're ways to ground yourself so much that what is real and psychological is absolutely clear. Mind will not be flying into all kinds of imaginations, it will be stable and balanced. I think you would benefit from yoga immensely. 

 

I used to think so, but now I am confused. 

[tsuki]

3 minutes ago, Buba said:

If you hallucinate a kid drowning in the sea and other people assure you that there is no kid in the sea, will you still dive to save the kid?

You wanna play with me? How sweet.

If you hallucinate other people telling you that there is no kid to save, then nothing can save you.

[Buba]

2 minutes ago, tsuki said:

You wanna play with me? How sweet.

If you hallucinate other people telling you that there is no kid to save, then nothing can save you.

Why dont you stop hallucinating?

[tsuki]

@Buba I'm not. I'm showing you that there is no difference between reality and hallucination and opening you up to groundlessness.

[Nahm]

14 minutes ago, Buba said:

Why do sane people say those monsters are real?

You don’t actually have any meaning for sane. Go ahead and check. Find it. 

Nor monsters.

Nor real. 

That is how & why.

Notice while sleeping you are the only place in which the dream transpires. Because you are sleeping, you create the dream by default, without intention, freely playing out the logical continuances of the repetitions of the mind’s identifications with daily experiences. 

Now add intention. 

Now look at the sleeper, and ask them why they hold such beliefs. Why would they sleep in the dream of awake?  What answer is needed in the deep question-less slumber? Upon awakening, the third eye sees the peaceful sleep the monster is in. Unfair at best, the 2 on 1 ratio, apparently.

[Buba]

2 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@Buba I'm not. I'm showing you that there is no difference between reality and hallucination and opening you up to groundlessness.

There is no difference in terms of my experience, but there is a reality even when I dont exist. Whatever I hallucinate has nothing to do with objective reality. 

[tsuki]

10 minutes ago, Buba said:

there is a reality even when I dont exist

What "I" are you talking about? The psyche? The body? The job description? The family member? The compatriot?
Which one of those is the field in which hallucinations occur? What is the thing in which the 'objective reality' is present?

10 minutes ago, Buba said:

Whatever I hallucinate has nothing to do with objective reality. 

Even in the scientific paradigm of objective, measurable, reality your hallucinations are objective.
If you explain them in terms of your bodily functions, then it is objective reality fucking with its own perception for whatever reason.
Can you pinpoint the exact place in which the subjective turns into objective?

Edited June 7, 2019 by tsuki

[Buba]

13 minutes ago, Nahm said:

You don’t actually have any meaning for sane. Go ahead and check. Find it. 

Nor monsters.

Nor real. 

That is how & why.

Notice while sleeping you are the only place in which the dream transpires. Because you are sleeping, you create the dream by default, without intention, freely playing out the logical continuances of the repetitions of the mind’s identifications with daily experiences. 

Now add intention. 

Now look at the sleeper, and ask them why they hold such beliefs. Why would they sleep in the dream of awake?  What answer is needed in the deep question-less slumber? Upon awakening, the third eye sees the peaceful sleep the monster is in. Unfair at best, the 2 on 1 ratio, apparently.

I know the reality is interpretation of my mind. But there are two versions:

1) Either there is an objective reality, independently existing, beyond my experience.

2) Or all reality is just my imagination, my experience, in which case hallucinations and ordinary life could be same.

[Nahm]

10 minutes ago, Buba said:

I know the reality is interpretation of my mind. But there are two versions:

1) Either there is an objective reality, independently existing, beyond my experience. You’d never know. 

2) Or all reality is just my imagination, my experience, in which case hallucinations and ordinary life could be same. You already Know. Psychedelics are basically a post it note that you wrote...”You’re hallucinating”. The tricky part is the me which is thought of. Thoughts are hallucination.

A decent contemplation might be, what is homeostasis made of?