Who's Interested In Conscious Politics?

[electroBeam]

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

@electroBeam good God stop. 

Yes there is no such thing as society. There is no such thing as mind. There’s no such thing as language. There is no such thing as politics. There is no such thing as other perspectives as all perspective collapse into the One perspective. There is no such thing as the subconscious mind. There is no such thing as others. There is no such thing as time. There is no such thing as gravity.

... what you’re clearly ignorant of is that something doesn’t need to be existentially true in order to be useful. The greatest masters understand this. Lanaguage doesn’t exist. You’re using it though. So whose the being a hypocrite here? Time doesn’t exist but you still use it. Gravity doesn’t exist but you still use it. Perspectives don’t exist but unfortunately you’re failing to use that. 

Libertarianism is a fantasy that doesn’t apply in practice and is grounded in entitlement. You’re not owed freedom. You’re not owed liberation. You’re not owed knowledge. You’re not owed anything. There needed to be a creation that involved social contracts that established principles, policies, laws, systems, etc. to provide you with the cushy position that allows people to get soft and take their survival for granted. 

Libertarianism is like a spoiled rich kid who takes for granted his wealthy background that his parents have provided him and demands freedom and then becomes reckless and demands freedom and then goes out in the world out of recklessness and then becomes beaten down by the realities of the world. Then he realizes of how much he took his world for granted. Then he sees the value of the system and why it’s in place and why there are certain rules and checks and balances. 

You are part of an illusory system and in an illusory world. Do your damn part because it’s your creation. Treat it with the Love, respect, Goodness that it is and the responsibility that’s required to create something that benefits the entire whole that is you. And that has nothing to do with you whining about how you don’t get to the whole pie all for yourself. We’re all special. So what makes you so special for dropping your selfish ideas and take responsibility to contribute to the entire whole? 

well that's one perspective of libertarianism(and yeah its definitely true, in a way that's exactly right) but the other perspective is, people who don't believe in libertarianism are people who try to take away the freedom you have because they think they are entitled to your freedom. If you are someone who believes in libertarianism, this is extremely threatening. You're taking away a precious right, and really who are you to take that right away? You're infringing on territory that's not yours?

As with your first point, calm down that anger. I'm not trying to tell you your problems are less real than they are. I understand you are suffering a lot from society, and just telling you its an illusion doesn't help, it just dismisses your problem and makes you feel bad about it because I'm not acknowledging suffering that is clearly there. BUT, if what I say is true, what ramifications does this have on your life? What if you really did realise it was an illusion(instead of just believing it)? What if instead of getting angry at the comment, you explored what society was existentially? Could you still have all of your petty problems then? Would you really take those problems seriously? Would you be in a better position to change the world if you're ego was not entangled in it? Realizing this has very practical results for your wellbeing and ability to change the world. And if you do observe society for what it is, you will overcome the problems that caused you to get angry at the comment in the first place. This is a cure not a dismissal. 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, electroBeam said:

You're taking away a precious right, and really who are you to take that right away? You're infringing on territory that's not yours?

All rights are human egoic constructs. And part of your survival agenda.

Who are you to say I don't have a right to take away your rights? If I want to, I can enslave you. You are free to defend yourself, if you can. Let's see who wins.

Don't tell me that I am not free to enslave you. Who are you to take away my freedom?

See, the truth is you only care about maximizing YOUR freedom. You only care about freedom WHEN IT SERVES YOU. So you are just bindly acting out your selfish agenda while disguising it as some higher principle. The truth is you cannot tolerate true freedom because true freedom is the most dangerous thing to your ego. You want to restrict people from enslaving you. That's not freedom, that's limitation.

Libertarianism is just a clever trick of the ego-mind. It's a stage Orange ideology. There's nothing deeply truthful about it. It is deeply hypocritical and hopelessly naive about human power dynamics and political history.

Libertarians are ignorant of how government actually develops and works. Because they don't believe it's worthwhile to study because they believe government is bad.

[Zizzero]

"I am right and everyone who disagrees with me is low consciousness" - this forum in a nutshell whenever politial topics come up

[Norbert Lennartz]

@Leo Gura

Wait a minute. I translate that into Machiavelli/Orwell.

----

All "rights" are human egoic constructs [spars, lose screws in mind, whatever. I agree]. And part of your survival agenda.

Who are you to say I don't have might to take away your might? If I want to, I can enslave you. You are alowed to defend yourself, if you can. Let's see who wins.

Don't tell me that I am not alowed to enslave you. Who are you to take away my might?

See, the truth is you only care about maximizing YOUR unhampered being. You only care about being WHEN IT SERVES YOU. So you are just bindly acting out your selfish agenda while disguising it as some higher principle, we speak only about you, parasit! The truth is you cannot tolerate my unhampered illusion because my unhampered illusion is the most dangerous thing to your want. You want to restrict people from enslaving you. That's not unhampered being, that's hampered being.

So note, my Freedom is your limitation. My Limitations on you are your freedom.

----

This is a representation of stage Blue and Red of course.

[Leo Gura]

47 minutes ago, Norbert Lennartz said:

Don't tell me that I am not alowed to enslave you. Who are you to take away my might?

Unlike you, I don't subscribe to "rights" or childish notions of freedom. Me and every other sane person will get together and limit your ability to be a devil precisely because we don't like devils running loose. So we will physically prevent you from enslaving others. And you'll have to deal with that or die.

That's life.

While you talk childish nonsense we will create a better government and better world for the majority of us. You will end up benefiting from our work even though you sit there and make a mockery of it.

[electroBeam]

@Leo Gura most of these sane people don't take that approach. Sadhguru tries to convince you, but doesn't force you to take on his ideology. He respects you as a human and stops encroaching on you at a certain point. One of the teachers in your kriya booklist said you would be a fountain of truth, for others to drink out of.(notice not a warlord of truth)

This is the approach of most spiritual teachers, getting together and limiting your right to be a devil is usually a tactic stage blue tries out. 

These are quite similar actions a libertarian would take. While spiritual teachers are not libertarians, they do follow libertarian ideals, suggesting they see value in it.

Also that's a very simplistic view of libertarianism. It's more than just a hopeless naive ideology trick for covering up your selfishness. Yes it selfish(in Leo's philosophy of life) but it is a sustainable selfishness which reduces suffering. Never has there been a time in history where people haven't been frequently enslaved. This is because only recently have governments taken on a more libertarian approach. libertarian is basically "you mind your own business and I'll mind mine. If it's your life I wont touch it, but if it's my life you don't touch it". This is very sustainable, not only that but it allows a country to be truly secular and tolerate multiple religions under a single country. Because governments mind their own business, they are not expansive orientated, which means they lack the desire to spread to different countries. This keeps a lot of peace in the world.

 

What you're suggesting is totally unattainable for most people right now, you need to be enlightened and have no ego to live by those standards, so the best thing for an ego is sharing selfish activities equally(i.e. libertarianism).

Edited June 8, 2019 by electroBeam

[Norbert Lennartz]

@Leo Gura
Leo, you're blocking wherever you can. I'm not a representative of "rights" or "freedom" right now. I see it like Max Stirner.

The question is, who is really devilish and unreasonable here, if some people in the self-interest (because of fear or greed, what else?) rush one government with power on the others, and the others in the self-interest boycott, corrupt, bribe, run along, exploit, limit or get rid of the government, etc. This inevitably leads to a class struggle. Not because of my kind, but because of the conflicts among those you call "we". That is socialism. It is not well controllable for simple economic and ethical reasons of human action. You can read all this in Ludwig von Mises' work.

I also wonder how a government that relies on presumption of violence can function without the idea of "rights" or the "rule of law. But let's leave that out.

Instead, you believe that you know life better for others. This is nothing more than deification of the state as e.g. the workers' leader Ferdinand Lassalle, Mao Tse Tung, Fidel Castro and the Bolshevists and the communists of the Eastern Bloc had it in mind. The presumption of knowledge. If that's not diabolical, then I don't know what can be diabolical at all. 

And this greed or fear makes you blind to the big picture that many "gurus" point to. Please look at Krishnamurti. After the K. explained several times that you only have to change to see what can happen, someone asks: "Yes, but how are we supposed to do it in the UN? K.: "I don't know. I am not a member of this organization. Ask your boss."

[CreamCat]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

While you talk childish nonsense we will create a better government and better world for the majority of us

It seems Leo wants to create a political party someday.

[Shadowraix]

I think this thread has served its purpose. 

[kieranperez]

@electroBeam your notions of how government and politics work are a fantasy. None of those things you’re throwing out are what ACTUALLY happens in the real world. 

Everybody being enlightened WONT save the world. Enlightenment doesn’t come up with systems with how we interact or make people compassionate a lot of the time. 

Libertarianism is a ideology grounded in selfishness because you think you’re owed a damn thing. Let me spin this back on you. You brought up before how politics and what not are an illusion. Guess what? You’re human rights are an illusion. They don’t exist. They only reason you bring up “having the right to...” is because there’s a government that allows you to enjoy those liberties. Those a government and a system to take enough of a burden off you to actually not worry too much about your survival in order to be able to pursue enlightenment. There’s a reason Self-Transcendence is at the top of Maslows hierarchy of needs. 

All that you’re providing in this discussion are fantastical ideals that 1. Are all grounded in you being selfish thinking you don’t need to contribute to the larger whole and to the system that keeps your ass safe, 2. Are all grounded in fantasies and not in how the world actually works. How survival actually works. Survival is dirty shit. 

What you don’t understand on how “minding my business” is how just this isn’t the case. Hell. I bet if we observed you or any other libertarian, we would see that’s not what you do in practice. You care about how other people from your own selfish survival standpoint. You don’t actually mind your business now will any of us because that’s not how this game works. You’re involved with everyone whether you like it or not. Cooperation is a human NEED. Now if you wanna delude yourself of that, go right ahead. We have hundreds of thousands of years of history to back that up alone. Much less the development in developmental psychology and human evolution.

Libertarianism is grounded in selfishness and it is just that simple. It’s that simple because that’s what libertarianism is grounded in. You as an individual or me or anyone else don’t matter at all. 

16 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

It seems Leo wants to create a political party someday.

Projections. I don’t know where you’re mind is coming up with that.

[electroBeam]

6 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

@electroBeam your notions of how government and politics work are a fantasy. None of those things you’re throwing out are what ACTUALLY happens in the real world. 

Everybody being enlightened WONT save the world. Enlightenment doesn’t come up with systems with how we interact or make people compassionate a lot of the time. 

Libertarianism is a ideology grounded in selfishness because you think you’re owed a damn thing. Let me spin this back on you. You brought up before how politics and what not are an illusion. Guess what? You’re human rights are an illusion. They don’t exist. They only reason you bring up “having the right to...” is because there’s a government that allows you to enjoy those liberties. Those a government and a system to take enough of a burden off you to actually not worry too much about your survival in order to be able to pursue enlightenment. There’s a reason Self-Transcendence is at the top of Maslows hierarchy of needs. 

All that you’re providing in this discussion are fantastical ideals that 1. Are all grounded in you being selfish thinking you don’t need to contribute to the larger whole and to the system that keeps your ass safe, 2. Are all grounded in fantasies and not in how the world actually works. How survival actually works. Survival is dirty shit. 

What you don’t understand on how “minding my business” is how just this isn’t the case. Hell. I bet if we observed you or any other libertarian, we would see that’s not what you do in practice. You care about how other people from your own selfish survival standpoint. You don’t actually mind your business now will any of us because that’s not how this game works. You’re involved with everyone whether you like it or not. Cooperation is a human NEED. Now if you wanna delude yourself of that, go right ahead. We have hundreds of thousands of years of history to back that up alone. Much less the development in developmental psychology and human evolution.

Libertarianism is grounded in selfishness and it is just that simple. It’s that simple because that’s what libertarianism is grounded in. You as an individual or me or anyone else don’t matter at all. 

Projections. I don’t know where you’re mind is coming up with that.

I'm aware that freedom is a social construct that hinges on waves of support from governments. What I'm saying is this way of doing things is good. it's a good way to do things which reduces suffering, compared to other systems. 

Also unlike you I don't hold anything against survival and selfishness. Selfishness is a natural part of this world, it's how things must be. 

Cooperation is done on mutual agreements in libertarianism. it's one of the most passive ways to collaborate. Whether that's done in practice, and whether I do it personally is irrelevant. We are talking about libertarianism not me. There is a difference between libertarianism and me. 

[kieranperez]

7 hours ago, electroBeam said:

As with your first point, calm down that anger. I'm not trying to tell you your problems are less real than they are. I understand you are suffering a lot from society, and just telling you its an illusion doesn't help, it just dismisses your problem and makes you feel bad about it because I'm not acknowledging suffering that is clearly there. BUT, if what I say is true, what ramifications does this have on your life? What if you really did realise it was an illusion(instead of just believing it)? What if instead of getting angry at the comment, you explored what society was existentially? Could you still have all of your petty problems then? Would you really take those problems seriously? Would you be in a better position to change the world if you're ego was not entangled in it? Realizing this has very practical results for your wellbeing and ability to change the world. And if you do observe society for what it is, you will overcome the problems that caused you to get angry at the comment in the first place. This is a cure not a dismissal. 

1. I’m not angry. I’m not playing coy

2. You’re not addressing the elephant in the room of what my point was. Don’t dodge it. Address it. Don’t make assumptions that I haven’t become conscious of what society is, time, and such things. What I’m communicating to you again is the fact that something doesn’t need to be existentially true in order to be useful. As that’s all that learning in the relative domain is. There are no others in yet you still create the distinction of others as mental creations in order to survive and interact. However, I don’t see you critiquing that.

3. Enlightenment is NOT survival strategy towards a greater world. Enlightenment is not the sole solution to mankind’s problems. Enlightenment is antithetical to survival. 

[Norbert Lennartz]

Who put the libertarian brand on here? Nowhere did I call myself libertarian or even mean it.

It is just a cheap pigeonhole. A defence mechanism of the Ego. 

[kieranperez]

1 minute ago, electroBeam said:

We are talking about libertarianism not me. There is a difference between libertarianism and me. 

No there is no difference between libertarianism and you, actually lol. 

2 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Also unlike you I don't hold anything against survival and selfishness. Selfishness is a natural part of this world, it's how things must be. 

Of course. The human condition will remain the human condition even after enlightenment. But of course, libertarianism tries masquerade that truth in order to justify their own agenda. You’re making a duality between you and the rest of the world and how you aren’t part of it. Yeah, bullshit lol you are COMPLETELY part of it intimately. 

Even if we create better systems, yes that is for survival but now the survival system doesn’t just include us as people but now we can create systems that serve the survival of mankind, the environment across the earth, other species, etc. and create a more integrated world. Libertarianism is grounded in making distinctions between self and other rather than integration of self and other to create a greater whole. 

8 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Whether that's done in practice, and whether I do it personally is irrelevant.

LOL translation: whether it works in the real world or not is irrelevant. So if it’s just cool fantasies I believe in or not, oh well.

[RichardY]

There are only 2 outcomes:

1) Tech Singluarity. Eusocial Selection. Hive Colony  like Ants. Hierarchical.
2) Human Singularity.(Omega Point) Prosocial Selection. Heterarchy


Left Libertarianism: Smoke pot, open borders, go live on a compound.
Right Libertarianism: Non Aggression Principle and Property Rights are paramount! Until it's a lifeboat scenario, or someone bigger comes along.

Objectivism:  Bioshock. Ride rough shod, over the weak. The strong will prevail.
Conservatism: Total Fail.

Socialism: Hierarchy. A Royal(Select)  class managing the system. Tory(Banditry).

Whiggism: Heterarchy. Aiming to increase an Aristocratic Class in number. And raise the intelligence of all people.

[electroBeam]

43 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

 What I’m communicating to you again is the fact that something doesn’t need to be existentially true in order to be useful. 

3. Enlightenment is NOT survival strategy towards a greater world. Enlightenment is not the sole solution to mankind’s problems. Enlightenment is antithetical to survival. 

yes, but society is not useful. 

Enlightenment is not a survival strategy, but it's a reduce suffering strategy - that's what we need. 

[electroBeam]

37 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Of course. The human condition will remain the human condition even after enlightenment. But of course, libertarianism tries masquerade that truth in order to justify their own agenda. You’re making a duality between you and the rest of the world and how you aren’t part of it. Yeah, bullshit lol you are COMPLETELY part of it intimately. 

You solve that by doing what I wrote to you in the first post: not believing society is real. 

No other way will get you there. I've noticed you have never suggested a political ideology which is better than libertarianism, and you have denied that the problem is solved by dropping ideology all together. Sounds like you would rather just complain about the system instead of solving it. 

[Zigzag Idiot]

Possible platform of ideas for conscious politics. Please add more,,, or more questions.

What message can be given to fundamentalists regardless of Religion which instills trust that essentially -- they can have their stage of the spiral

How to counteract the old paranoid notions about global citizenship. The shadow of The John Birch Society and dark cloud around a New World Order. 

Instead, how to join together the Conscious Circle of Humanity...?

What kind of idea or message can give others trust regardless of Spiral Dynamics model worldview?

[CreamCat]

34 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

No other way will get you there. I've noticed you have never suggested a political ideology which is better than libertarianism

Leo can suggest something better than a political ideology in his conscious politics videos.

[kieranperez]

53 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

Enlightenment is not a survival strategy, but it's a reduce suffering strategy - that's what we need. 

hahahahaha and how are you going to pursue enlightenment without your survival needs met? Please tell me how that actually works out in practice. Guess what? Most people on planet earth can’t realistically pursue enlightenment BECAUSE they haven’t met their survival needs. 

You understand the enlightened masters we know of today we only know of them because they had a society that nurtured their survival to such a point where they could pursue such an endeavor? Do you understand this?

Zen masters are only able to be Zen masters becaue they created a society and social and survival infrastructure that allows them to do that. 

53 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

yes, but society is not useful. 

Spoiled rich kid who doesn’t appreciate nor understand the privilege he’s been given and doesn’t understand that he’d be dead if it weren’t for the luxury of his privilege. 

Biting the hand that feeds you... and they do feed you. 

49 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

You solve that by doing what I wrote to you in the first post: not believing society is real. 

The human condition is not something you solve. Enlightenment doesn’t “solve” the human condition. Enlightenment gives you the consciousness of the human condition itself. However the condition itself will remain. How you relate to it can change. However... there is no enlightenment without survival. Period. End of story. And you will not be able to pursue enlightenment if there is no system that allows for such an endeavor. 

Do you understand ashrams, monasteries, etc. are nothing but mini societies that require the leniency on the rest of society in order for it to survive? Monasteries and ashrams and friends and all of that all involve social hierarchies. Enlightenment doesn’t eliminate that condition. That will remain. In yet it’s still an illusion.

49 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

I've noticed you have never suggested a political ideology which is better than libertarianism, and you have denied that the problem is solved by dropping ideology all together. Sounds like you would rather just complain about the system instead of solving it. 

HAHAHAHA “but where your dogma?!” INTEGRAL. Integrate the partial perspectives. I don’t know where you’re seeing me not suggest what we can do. Go back to my first comment on this thread.

Further, yeah I don’t have all the answers. Hence this being a nuanced and complex issue in the world and not some ridiculously convoluted one of “everybody needs to get enlightened and we need to just see society as an illusion and you do you and I do me.” This Nondual keyboard dribble. As though the world’s issues are that dumb. 

So yeah I’m not just going to cling and preach some ideology lol. As though having my own pet ideologies are really of interest to me nor benefit to the world.

What you’re failing to appreciate is the paradox. 

There are no others to save and so therefore you vow to save them.

Everything is absolutely perfect and so we must work enormously hard to fix the catastrophes occurring that are to lead to even bigger catastrophes.

That’s not a contradiction that’s a feature. In yet you can only see that feature when you stop hanging out on only one side of the street.