Who's Interested In Conscious Politics?

[Joseph Maynor]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@winterknight Wow, cool! I like her too. But her track record is a bit worse than Bernie. She was a fucking Republican! I'm sure she's evolved a lot. But there are still a couple of issues where she's not as strong as Bernie. For example, she still waffles a bit on Medicare For All and her foreign policy is somewhat uncertain.

She'd still be a great president of course compared to most other candidates.

I hope she and Bernie beat out Joe Biden. She would also make a great VP, setting her up for the future.

Joe Biden is terrible.

Now, what's wrong with Republicans?  This looks like a lock.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

52 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Leo Gura I would rather put in a democrat who is a waste of a term than risk Trump getting a second term.

That is exactly the kind of logic which gets Trump elected.

Many people in this country have real problems. People are dying every day from lack of medical care, etc. They cannot wait around for 4 more years with no action simply because you want peace. If you do not address their problems they will vote in a fascist dictator worse than Trump next time because they are desperate. Desperate people do desperate things and you will end up paying the price for it.

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The problem I see is that both Warren and Sanders have been branded as extremists. Moderates and frustrated Republicans WILL come out to vote against Trump as long as the democratic candidate doesn't scare them away. 

We don't need Republicans to vote out Trump. Trump's support is no larger than 35%. He is deeply unpopular. The only reason he got elected in the first place is because people did not realize how bad he is. Now everyone reasonable understands. His base won't change their mind no matter what. But that doesn't matter. It's the swing voters who matter and they realize Trump is a con-artist.

The Republicans will demonize any Democratic candidate. Even if it's Joe Biden. So this is a non-issue. That's how devilry works. It will not play fair or pull its punches. If you concede ground to a devil he will just keep taking more and more and more. He will never stop being a devil no matter how moderate and nice you are to him. In fact, he will label you an extremist for not giving him more.

The demonization of Warren and Sanders is not an accident. It is how Maya works! People who stand up for truth and love are demonized and executed. This is not a valid reason to not support good leaders. All good leaders will be demonized by the status quo which is corrupted by ego.

By your logic Jesus was too extremist to have been a religious leader. You should worship a Joe Biden instead. And indeed, if you were alive in the time of Jesus you would have cheered his execution and worshiped some orthodox Rabbi instead. Because Jesus was radical and rocked the boat. You want peace so you want the status quo, which is actually evil. But hey, it's what you're comfortable with, and from your POV that's what matters most: that you are comfortable. Nothing else much matters to you. That's ego. That's survival. That's evil.

[Leo Gura]

44 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Now, what's wrong with Republicans?  This looks like a lock.

What's wrong is that they behave like shameless devils while pretending they are equal to Democrats. They are not.

Truth is not neutral. The midpoint between bullshit and truth is still bullshit.

[Joseph Maynor]

32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What's wrong is that they behave like shameless devils while pretending they are equal to Democrats. They are not.

Truth is not neutral. The midpoint between bullshit and truth is still bullshit.

"Republican" is just a word and a concept that human beings are more or less resonant with.  That's all it is.  It's a linear label.  Every person is a mix between Conserativism (Yang) and Progressivism (Yin).  Apply the Paradox of Conservativism and Progressivism.  In that case, you'll see that the word/concept "Republican" has pros and cons, and you can integrate the pros and leave behind the cons of the word/concept "Republican".  Don't judge it, use it, see.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[winterknight]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@winterknight Wow, cool! I like her too. But her track record is a bit worse than Bernie. She was a fucking Republican! I'm sure she's evolved a lot. But there are still a couple of issues where she's not as strong as Bernie. For example, she still waffles a bit on Medicare For All and her foreign policy is somewhat uncertain.

She'd still be a great president of course compared to most other candidates.

I hope she and Bernie beat out Joe Biden. She would also make a great VP, setting her up for the future.

Joe Biden is terrible.

Well I certainly agree on Biden being terrible. I think the reason I like Warren more than Bernie is that Bernie is very polarizing. A lot of Democrats just hate him. I'm not sure that bodes well for him being able to accomplish things. Warren is principled but is capable of being highly diplomatic.

On Medicare for All, I haven't studied it carefully, but I've heard some arguments that, taken very literally, it may not necessarily the best way of getting to universal healthcare. I see Warren as someone who is absolutely in favor of universal health care, but perhaps doesn't want to be boxed into a specific plan that sounds good but that she's not sure will work well in practice.

Foreign policy is an interesting point. Will have to look into that more...

And Warren's Republicanism I actually view as a very healthy sign of an open mind. She figured out she was wrong and changed her ways. Not an easy thing to do as an adult.

[Joseph Maynor]

@Leo Gura I'm just curious about one thing Leo.  Why are you so moralistic, absolute truth-ish, almost puritanical in your energy, yet you preach in words the importance of not clinging to 'shoulds'?  How does that work out?  You sound like a very Orthodox religious man.  That's the energy that comes off.  Very Stage Blue.   Very absolute truth-ish.  It's like Mohammad, everybody's job is to copy his words and deeds because he was right by God; he alone was the source of the Absolute Truth.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

"Republican" is just a word and a concept that human beings are more or less resonant with.  That's all it is.  It's a linear label.  Every person is a mix between Conserativism (Yang) and Progressivism (Yin).  Apply the Paradox of Conservativism and Progressivism.  In that case, you'll see that the word/concept "Republican" has pros and cons, and you can integrate the pros and leave behind the cons of the word/concept "Republican".  Don't judge it, use it, see.

No. This is terrible and sloppy analysis. With this kind of analysis the devils will exploit you since you're simplistically splitting everything down the middle and assuming symmetries which are actually asymmetrical.

Republicans and Democrats are not just two sides of the same coin. Democrats are more conscious, more openminded, more Spirally developed, and less corrupt. This is very important to understand. This doesn't mean Democrats don't have flaws. They do. But Republicans have way bigger flaws. This needs to be acknowledged, otherwise you end up with a false equivalency which maintains an evil status quo.

The midpoint between pro-slavery and anti-slavery positions is still slavery. A proper analysis of slavery must conclude that all slavery be abolished. Which can seem like a radical position. But of course "radical" is totally relative.

1 hour ago, winterknight said:

Well I certainly agree on Biden being terrible. I think the reason I like Warren more than Bernie is that Bernie is very polarizing. A lot of Democrats just hate him. I'm not sure that bodes well for him being able to accomplish things. Warren is principled but is capable of being highly diplomatic.

On Medicare for All, I haven't studied it carefully, but I've heard some arguments that, taken very literally, it may not necessarily the best way of getting to universal healthcare. I see Warren as someone who is absolutely in favor of universal health care, but perhaps doesn't want to be boxed into a specific plan that sounds good but that she's not sure will work well in practice.

Foreign policy is an interesting point. Will have to look into that more...

And Warren's Republicanism I actually view as a very healthy sign of an open mind. She figured out she was wrong and changed her ways. Not an easy thing to do as an adult.

You make some good points.

I worry that Warren may cave to more centrist, status quo forces. The system will try to co-opt her. I don't worry so much about that happening with Bernie.

54 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

@Leo Gura I'm just curious about one thing Leo.  Why are you so moralistic, absolute truth-ish, almost puritanical in your energy, yet you preach in words the importance of not clinging to 'shoulds'?  How does that work out?  You sound like a very Orthodox religious man.  That's the energy that comes off.  Very Stage Blue.   Very absolute truth-ish.  It's like Mohammad, everybody's job is to copy his words and deeds because he was right by God; he alone was the source of the Absolute Truth.

Yes, it sure can seem that way from your POV.

Again, don't confuse consciousness and Truth for neutrality or weakness. Conscious people are capable of taking bold and decisive action which may seem crazy to those who are unconscious or part of the status quo.

Conscious leaders can be radicals. Which does not make them fundamentalists. They just have a higher vision than the rest of society can see. First they mock you, then they slander you, then they try to kill you, and finally, 200 years later, they accept everything you said as obvious and moral, worshiping you as a prophet and saint.

I am not moralistic at all. You are feel to kill whoever you want. You will still be loved by God. Nothing you do is wrong in any way. The moralistic one is you because you believe in good and bad, right and wrong, and you judge your own wickedness.

My political discussions are purely pragmatic. In the absolute sense politics doesn't matter at all. The whole planet can die and it will be just fine. But not from the ego's POV. So we are really talking about how to create a better world for egos.

[Joseph Maynor]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The moralistic one is you because you believe in good and bad, right and wrong, and you judge your own wickedness.

But what I'm saying Leo is that you do too and I don't think you see this in yourself.  You have a very moralistic, judgmental, absolute truth-ish, almost puritanical energy.  It's almost like you're teaching your own Shadow.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

But what I'm saying Leo is that you do too and I don't think you see this in yourself.  You have a very moralistic, judgmental, absolute truth-ish, almost puritanical energy,

That's just style.

[Dylan Page]

@Joseph Maynor The point is to make a better world for our egos. Bypassing the more transcendent truths and functioning as the egos that we are now. Leo just might have strong opinions on how we are to go about doing that, not sure, I think that’s what he means by style. 

[mandyjw]

@Leo Gura Jesus stayed out of politics and the government, in fact he really disappointed a lot of his followers. They tried to blame him for inciting people against Rome, because they had a hard time coming up with a good reason to crucify him but he never did that. He told people to pay their taxes and he resisted when they tried to force him into becoming a king. Jesus was a healer and a spiritual teacher. He knew his life purpose and stuck to it. He didn't try to be a radical, it just happened to be the case.

I do see your point but is there no room for mediators and compromises? Isn't that the purpose of understanding other people and using the model of spiral dynamics? Too much change too soon causes collective ego backlash, and that's what Trump embodies. We have a two party system, and an electoral college that decides for us. If the popular vote decided the election Hillary Clinton would have won. Rural American gets more weight in elections and you have to apply your understanding of spiral dynamics. Bernie might work out. He had a great shot in the last election but we can sit here and blame the DNC and corruption there for that. Bernie better understands rural America and how to speak to people. I think he is seen as too polarizing now. 

You're very well educated, and you've spent your life around people who are also well educated. Spend some time living in rural America and you'll have a different world view.  I'm not sure that you realize how intimidating a politician who doesn't hide their intelligence is to people who don't have a good education. You have to know how to talk to people on their level. Bernie knows this. Hillary Clinton had little understanding of it and neither does Elizabeth Warren. Warren would be my top pick if it was up to me, but it's incredibly difficult for anyone to come off as both highly intelligent, capable AND down to earth.

How do you think Bernie and Warren's messages sound? Canceling student loan debt? When I've spent my life working a blue collar job and no one in my family has a college education? When the few people I know who have gone to college look down their noses at me? What planet do you even live on? 

Uneducated people look at intelligence as the highest form of Devilry. There's a reason Bill Clinton, George W Bush, Obama, literally ALL the Presidents had a persona that all people could see themselves in. Clinton and Warren spent their lives trying to prove themselves to intelligent men, and they  forgot the importance of not alienating the rest of the country that wasn't as blessed with the opportunities they had for education. It's not their fault that women have to work so hard to prove themselves, or that they feel they have to. But it is their fault for carrying a chip on their shoulder that other people can see from a mile away. 

[CreamCat]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I have sources which are far superior to any mastermind group.

I just go straight to God. Cutting out all the middle-men.

That's for spiritual problems.

For practical problems like getting fit and getting laid and solving certain problems, consulting God in you may not be enough. Consulting God for everything is like spiritual ideology.

I'm gearing toward post-spiritual personal development if you know what I mean.

Edited June 12, 2019 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, mandyjw said:

@Leo Gura Jesus stayed out of politics and the government, in fact he really disappointed a lot of his followers. They tried to blame him for inciting people against Rome, because they had a hard time coming up with a good reason to crucify him but he never did that. He told people to pay their taxes and he resisted when they tried to force him into becoming a king. Jesus was a healer and a spiritual teacher. He knew his life purpose and stuck to it. He didn't try to be a radical, it just happened to be the case.

My point about Jesus was not his politics but the fact that he was a radical in his time. You think the rabbis of his time weren't upset with him? A guy who came along and starts a whole new version of Judaism? Proclaiming to be the son of God? Ordinary folks in that era would have perceived this as outrageous radicalism of the highest order. Utter blasphemy and disrespect of tradition. If the Romans hadn't killed him the Jews might have.

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I do see your point but is there no room for mediators and compromises? Isn't that the purpose of understanding other people and using the model of spiral dynamics? Too much change too soon causes collective ego backlash, and that's what Trump embodies. We have a two party system, and an electoral college that decides for us. If the popular vote decided the election Hillary Clinton would have won. Rural American gets more weight in elections and you have to apply your understanding of spiral dynamics. Bernie might work out. He had a great shot in the last election but we can sit here and blame the DNC and corruption there for that. Bernie better understands rural America and how to speak to people. I think he is seen as too polarizing now. 

Our problem is not too much change too soon. The planet is dying. We need radical change 30 years ago.

Just because there is an ego backlash does not mean we stop pushing for much-needed reform. There is always ego backlash. This is nothing new. Don't let fear of ego backlash prevent you from making the right moves which you know will help people.

You think the abolition of slavery didn't come with a backlash? What were folks supposed to do? Maintain slavery simply because the slave owners would bitch about losing their slaves? Those in power always bitch about how unfair it is that their power is being taken away.

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You're very well educated, and you've spent your life around people who are also well educated. Spend some time living in rural America and you'll have a different world view.  I'm not sure that you realize how intimidating a politician who doesn't hide their intelligence is to people who don't have a good education. You have to know how to talk to people on their level. Bernie knows this. Hillary Clinton had little understanding of it and neither does Elizabeth Warren. Warren would be my top pick if it was up to me, but it's incredibly difficult for anyone to come off as both highly intelligent, capable AND down to earth.

I agree that uneducated people tend to dislike highly educated wonks. I think Bernie doesn't have this problem. Bernie comes across as an ordinary guy, not an elite university professor. This is a potential problem for Warren. But again, this is an image problem, not a substantive one.

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How do you think Bernie and Warren's messages sound? Canceling student loan debt? When I've spent my life working a blue collar job and no one in my family has a college education? When the few people I know who have gone to college look down their noses at me? What planet do you even live on? 

Conscious politics requires that you stop thinking about your personal agenda so much. There are larger issues here beyond whether you will personally benefit from a policy. Besides, your children might benefit. And you will benefit if we live in a society where most people are well-educated rather than bigots who believe every piece of right-wing propaganda.

This year I personally gained $40,000 in tax refund thanks to Trump. The government literally mailed me a check for $40,000. Next year I will probably get another $40,000. So for me, Bernie is terrible. I will lose so much money with him in office. But I don't let my personal finances get in the way of what is right for the country at large. That is conscious politics. It's not about what's best for me. It's about what's best for the majority of people and what equalizes consciousness. Giving rich people like me $40,000 does not help to equalize consciousness, it does the opposite. Nor did I vote to get a tax cut.

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Uneducated people look at intelligence as the highest form of Devilry.

That is a huge problem. That's unconsciousness. Uneducated people are far greater devils and they elect devils more often.

[mandyjw]

@Leo Gura Jesus was radical but he wasn't dealing with a democratic government. We have to be realistic about how much we can make a change within an existing framework. Hearts have to be changed before minds can be. Minds have to be changed before physical change is made. 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You think the abolition of slavery didn't come with a backlash? What were folks supposed to do? Maintain slavery simply because the slave owners would bitch about losing their slaves? Those in power always bitch about how unfair it is that their power is being taken away.

I recently saw this engraved on the only black guy's grave in the old cemetery here in my town. "The war of the rebellion freed the slaves." The backlash came before the slaves were freed, the backlash started the war and the loss of the war was what freed the slaves. Abraham Lincoln quoted Jesus to say that "A house divided against itself cannot stand", the disagreement about the issue of slavery was too great. 

Do we need another civil "war"? Or do we need to integrate and compromise with one another? Everything you do is ultimately something you do to and within yourself. 

Republican, rural, conservative values are not worthless. While they are very difficult to respect sometimes, they must be appreciated and they must be integrated or we are fooling ourselves that we are conscious. Go spend a year working on a farm somewhere. Forgot your education and work with your hands under the sun. There is a certain kind of wisdom that hard physical work, that the earth so gracefully imparts on you. You don't get a degree to show for it, but it's real and it humbles you and opens your heart.  Why do you like Bernie, why is his image the way it is? Because he's from Vermont and knows how to govern a rural state.

Why do you think so many of Jesus' teachings were stories and parables about farming and fishing? Why do you think he worked as a carpenter? The Pharisees were the learned ones, he was down to earth. 

 If you want to be a Christ you need to learn to understand these people, you need to become one. Time to get your hands dirty Leo. 

Edited June 12, 2019 by mandyjw

[tsuki]

Othership, othership...

[mandyjw]

4 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Othership, othership...

othership, mothership? take me to your leader. now i sound like nowisforever. 

[Leo Gura]

@mandyjw Those conservative values you extol got us Trump and Bush. Just think about that. 200,000 to 1 million people killed in Iraq. $3 trillion dollars wasted. Worst recession since the Great Depression.

Working on a farm is good stuff. But good government it does not make.

[mandyjw]

@Leo Gura If so many people weren't idiots who continually take on mortgages for home they can't afford, get themselves into credit card debt and take our massive student loans the Great Recession wouldn't have happened. There are many different defenses against evil and misfortune and teaching personal responsibility is YOUR forte. It's also the conservative highest value. I'm not saying that who shouldn't be so interested in politics, you should I just hope that you fully understand your potential here. There's something to learn from everyone, every racist country bumpkin redneck knows something about the universe that you don't know. It's all pure potential, don't overlook anyone because in doing so you only underestimate yourself. 

 

[mandyjw]

@Etherial Cat

For some reason I had assumed you were American. Why are there so few Americans on this forum??? It's seriously destroying my skewed American centric world view. 

Hey Leo, I was born in the US, so if you want, I'll run for President for you, I'll be the face, and you can do all the hard work. As a bonus, I'm really good at saying stupid things out of the blue, just like George W Bush. The American people really seem to appreciate that kind of thing. 

[winterknight]

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

@Leo Gura If so many people weren't idiots who continually take on mortgages for home they can't afford, get themselves into credit card debt and take our massive student loans the Great Recession wouldn't have happened. There are many different defenses against evil and misfortune and teaching personal responsibility is YOUR forte. It's also the conservative highest value. I'm not saying that who shouldn't be so interested in politics, you should I just hope that you fully understand your potential here. There's something to learn from everyone, every racist country bumpkin redneck knows something about the universe that you don't know. It's all pure potential, don't overlook anyone because in doing so you only underestimate yourself. 

The recession wasn't caused by a lack of personal consumer responsibility, it was caused by massive lack of regulation of the financial and real estate sectors. How do we know this? Because we didn't have regular financial crises crises for the middle chunk of the 20th century, when there was regulation. In the 19th century and early 20th century, there was little regulation, and -- massive regular financial crises. After the 80s, when there was deregulation again -- massive regular financial crises.

For 2008, it was not a lack of personal responsibility but unregulated systematic marketing of low-quality loans to low-education and vulnerable communities, unregulated securitization of such loans, massive unregulated leverage of banks and other financial institutions, all on the premise of 'responsibility' and the free market. Even arch-conservative free-marketeer Alan Greenspan admitted he had been wrong about a lack of regulation.

And when the shit hit the fan, who ponied up the money? Was it the rich? Or was it taxpayers? Where was personal responsibility then? Did the GOP call for corporate CEOs who had profited off all this pain to go to jail? Did rural voters?

 

Personal responsibility is fundamentally the wrong way to analyze society's ills. People are responsible or not because of an enormous structure around them of incentives and education and culture.

Edited June 12, 2019 by winterknight