Who's Interested In Conscious Politics?

[RichardY]

14 minutes ago, Norbert Lennartz said:

@Leo Gura

Leo, you have a serious problem with pigeonholes.

I am an expert in the field. And I am not biased by libertarian thinking. But you have developed an aversion that blinds you.

With this basic attitude you have no chance at all to fathom this exciting topic. Not at all, because you yourself have to think about how social life, starting with Robinson on an island etc, can work, in order to compare these things with historical records.

Without all the basic work you are on a lost job. Arrogance doesn't help. And I say that because I mean well with you, because you have the abilities of a serious thinker.

But if these abilities go spilled in the political field, as so often, then I advise you to keep your hands off the subject.

In the book Robinson Crusoe was a slave Trader. When he was stranded he wishes for a Slave and not female company. Ends up selling a Moorish prisoner to Portuguese Slave traders, on the condition of being freed if he converts to Christianity with a decade. I know that because I was reading through a review of 18th Century Literature.

What political system do you suggest again?

[Zizzero]

@Leo Gura Something I would be interested in, and it would be cool if you could share this in one of your videos or here on the forum, is the following:
How did your political views change throughout your life and what made them change? What was the epiphany that made you outgrow a particular political philosophy?

[Norbert Lennartz]

@RichardY

I do not mean such a book, but the theoretical model of a "Robinsonade", with 2 people, then with several and many. How do these people live their lives without a monopoly on violence?

I have never spoken of a political system. What is that about?
 

[RichardY]

@Norbert Lennartz
Well since the thread is about Politics. Why not throw some ideas out there, if only for entertainment. If you think Libertarianism is Good then say so. There should be no state period.

If you're going to throw out Robinson Crusoe, knowing some background to the book is useful. Not what you think it should be about. I suppose if the islands were deficient in minerals and ultimately meat. Some may end up resorting to Cannibalism, Caribbean is where the word comes from, also the word taboo. I suppose without modern technology and a lack of capital. If they want to sustain a colony. They eat the residents before they reach 40.

[Norbert Lennartz]

@RichardY It's prejudiced.

[RichardY]

9 minutes ago, Norbert Lennartz said:

@RichardY It's prejudiced.

[electroBeam]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 The devilry that you guys get away with on this forum would never ever be allowed in a serious spiritual school. Half of you would have been kicked out long ago. Some of you would have been slapped hard across the face for your foolishness. Most of you would never have even been allowed inside in the first place.

Yep and this approach your taking enables the public to not get sucked into dogma. It's the best system out there for teaching spirituality. 

 

I've lived in an ashram for a while, what youre talking about is stage blue tactics, not some higher principle law. Ashrams are largely conservative and blue in their rules. This does not make them better than libertarian though.

I think you haven't studied libertarianism. The dirty work the police do can still be done in a libertarian society. America is probably the most libertarian society out there, there is still a strong police force controlling the streets. Libertarianism isn't about letting devils do whatever the fuck they want, it's about giving each ego a space to make their own decisions, and not follow others. If an ego encroaches on another's space, they are classified as devils and the police can be called. Libertarianism is about making contracts and agreements with people and then following through with mutual consent agreements. If you don't the police have the right to punish you.

If America was truly libertarian, you would be free to take 5 meo dmt legally. You could never do that at an ashram, you would need to abide by the dogmas of the temple. 

Furthermore your freedom to make this channel and say what you do came from years of high conscious liberals in the past pushing their agendas. Without libertarianism you would have been called a socialist and been put in jail long ago.

Freedom as an ego Leo has given you so much rights to do the stiff you do. Go to China and try to do the stuff you're doing(another country I've lived in for a while). You would have been put in jail ages ago: 1) for breaking the firewall and 2) for criticising your government.

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

If America was truly libertarian, you would be free to take 5 meo dmt legally.

If America was truly libertarian we would all be dead or enslaved. In fact, you would never have been born.

That is what you don't understand.

There is a very good reason why no nation in human history has ever been libertarian. Because it would be pure hell. In fact, it simply could not be suatained for more than a few decades before it collapsed.

If you want a libertarian lifestyle the closest thing would be moving to Somalia. You're welcome to move there.

[winterknight]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

If American was truly libertariam we would all be dead or enslaved.

That is what you don't understand.

Yup. Libertarians have the largest gap between how much they think they know and how much they actually do.

[ajasatya]

22 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

I've lived in an ashram for a while, what youre talking about is stage blue tactics, not some higher principle law. Ashrams are largely conservative and blue in their rules. This does not make them better than libertarian though.

The spiral dynamics framework is not exclusive. I mean, when you go up in the spiral, you don't forget what you have learned.

For instance, Turquoise communities are not chaotic. In fact, if you don't have fully integrated Blue, you'll find Turquoise communities to be oppressive! Whilst people at Turquoise will just get along with the flow and live there at peace.

Don't think that the order that emerges from Blue is bad. It's a necessity for highly complex societies.

[DrewNows]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I find this an odd thing to say.  Just think about it a little bit Leo.  Not trying to be rude, trying to help.

Serious spiritual school is all about discipline, no? 

This forum is more like regular life with freedom of speech, but this doesn’t mean we still don’t get slapped psychologically/emotionally 

[Joseph Maynor]

3 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

Serious spiritual school is all about discipline, no? 

This forum is more like regular life with freedom of speech, but this doesn’t mean we still don’t get slapped psychologically/emotionally 

This is why you gotta do personal development to a very advanced level  before you can excel in interpersonal development.  Not trying to be rude, just making a point.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[DrewNows]

6 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

This is why you gotta do personal development to a very advanced level  before you can excel in interpersonal development.  Not trying to be rude, just making a point.

Self discipline is holmark until it becomes an appearance and IS that of gratitude ?

[ajasatya]

59 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I find this an odd thing to say.  Just think about it a little bit Leo.  Not trying to be rude, trying to help.  Look at the attitude you're putting into reality and then see what reality is returning to you and see if there's a connection.  This is Law of Attraction 101.  I guess that's why/when dictatorship becomes palatable from a political systems standpoint.  When you hold yourself out there as morally superior, intellectually arrogant, and hard-hearted that's the energy reality is gonna direct right back to you. 

I don't always agree with Leo but he's pretty accurate on that one, regardless of how cold or warm his words are. Monasteries managed by true masters are severely rigorous when it comes down to tolerance. Practitioners are not allowed to discuss, talk about their lives, hold personal problems for too long, philosophize or practice any other form of distraction. Freedom can be destructive for the undisciplined mind.

[Zizzero]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If America was truly libertarian we would all be dead or enslaved. In fact, you would never have been born.

That is what you don't understand.

There is a very good reason why no nation in human history has ever been libertarian. Because it would be pure hell. In fact, it simply could not be suatained for more than a few decades before it collapsed.

If you want a libertarian lifestyle the closest thing would be moving to Somalia. You're welcome to move there.

I don't think you understand the philosophy behind libertarianism. Otherwise it would be blatantly obvious for any integral thinker to see the importance of implementing libertarian principles in good government

[Leo Gura]

39 minutes ago, Zizzero said:

I don't think you understand the philosophy behind libertarianism. Otherwise it would be blatantly obvious for any integral thinker to see the importance of implementing libertarian principles in good government

Good government already assumes protections for individual liberties. You speak as if government is some kind of totalitarian enterprise. That's not good government at all.

Good government delicately balances between individualism vs collectivism & freedom vs limitation. It does not take ideological or absolutist stances on either side.

Individual liberties are only possible through mutually agreed upon and self-imposed limitations. For example, you are not free to own a nuclear weapon because if such a liberty were allowed then all humans would be dead, thus ending all liberties for everyone. You are also not free to discharge a firearm in an airplane for obvious reasons.

The problem with the libertarian philosophy is that: A) it is purely a philosophy and disconnected from real life, and B) it is an ideological position of freedom absolutism. Absolutist positions do not work. They are a form of fundamentalism. Here you have a case of free market fundamentalism. So libertarianism is actually a kind of religion with all of the problems religions creates, just in a secular vein. If you notice the way in which libertarians defend themselves, it's very similar to how radical Muslims defend themselves. The mental gymnastics are similar.

[Joseph Maynor]

54 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

I don't always agree with Leo but he's pretty accurate on that one, regardless of how cold or warm his words are. Monasteries managed by true masters are severely rigorous when it comes down to tolerance. Practitioners are not allowed to discuss, talk about their lives, hold personal problems for too long, philosophize or practice any other form of distraction. Freedom can be destructive for the undisciplined mind.

But a monastery is run my a tried and true master.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Zizzero]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

So libertarianism is actually a kind of religion with all of the problems religions creates, just in a secular vein. If you notice the way in which libertarians defend themselves, it's very similar to how radical Muslims defend themselves. The mental gymnastics are similar.

That's how it looks when you don't look at the philosophy, but at the people. Every political philsophy looks bad when you judge it by the average person who subscribes to it. That's why I used the word philosophy. I mean just look at what you wrote here: 

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You speak as if government is some kind of totalitarian enterprise.

I don't believe I ever said that. But it makes me believe that you have a generic view on what a libertarian is. These comments make you look like some guy on YouTube who calls feminists dumb because he saw a few "feminists get triggered by facts" videos. Just with different actors.

I generally agree with your description of good government. We agree that reality is too complex for a simple solution like "libertarianism is always the best choice". Because people have different views, and because good government depends on the people it's supposed to govern.

The brilliance of libertarianism lies in the following question: Who gets to decide what good government is?
It's one thing to philosophize what your ideal government would look like, but at the end of the day are your values just that - your values. A good political philsophy must consider that people disagree on things. Libertarianism is, besides anarchy, the only political philosophy with the humbleness to say that it's not obvious what good government looks like.

[Leo Gura]

@Zizzero I don't find libertarianism even worth discussing. It is not a serious position.

Just one look at how foolish libertarian presidential candidates here in the US are tells you all you need to know. You can their videos on their conventions on Youtube. It's good for a night of laughs.

I once spent 12 hours straight binge-watching libertarian videos through the whole night until 6 in the morning. It was so funny it was like 12 hours of the best comedy I've ever watched.

Here's a good playlist of libertarian foolishness:

Watch out, it's so bad and so sad it's addictive.

 

 

[Joseph Maynor]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Zizzero I don't find libertarianism even worth discussing. It is not a serious position.

What if one were to integrate the pros of libertarianism and leave the cons of it behind?  What if we were to integrate all the major political theories in this pros and cons type way to sustainably solve actual political problems?  So, in that case, you don't wanna exclude or throw anything away, you wanna frankenstein solutions that make use of all the pros of the ideas we have but while simultaneously leaving the cons out.  So, libertarianism has pros and cons to it.  We don't wanna throw the baby about with the bathwater by thinking linearly about systems.  We wanna be more integral in how we look at political theories.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Joseph Maynor