Who's Interested In Conscious Politics?

[AnTe]

@Leo Gura I'm very interested in this topic and am happy to join to conversation. feel free to contact me if you'd like to discuss some of this directly, I'll be looking forward to it.

[Norbert Lennartz]

10 hours ago, CreamCat said:

@Norbert Lennartz I can imagine one way to escape the iron grip of society while being able to connect to it.

Imagine that you have technologies that enable you to excise an uninhabited solar system out of the universe. You would get a small universe consisting of a solar system. Now, you have technologies that enable you to copy the solar system at its original uninhabited condition infinitely many times and link the copies together with wireless energy transfer and wireless communication technologies. You alone would have access to the energy output of thousands upon thousands of stars. You could give this system to each individuals as a gift. Each person could become the owner of many solar systems.

With wireless energy transfer and wireless communication, you would be able to communicate with other solar universes and the origin universe.

Infinite habitats and infinitely many energy sources can free each individual. I don't know any other way to make anarchy happen sustainably without adverse side effects.

There are still rooms for infinite hell, though. A person who wants to lock down billions of creatures can use these technologies to create infinite hell.

I think this kind of thing can potentially happen in the future although we won't be just given keys to such enormous power unless we get our shit together.

That may be possible tomorrow. And you're right, there are rooms for the infinite hell. The climate dictatorship, as it is just beginning, is something that can fall on our feet for 100 years.
And there are technological possibilities that get us out of the iron grip of social plumbing. I have already mentioned the crypto thing several times. This shows that government is not an absolute. Even the most stubborn, state-bearing thinker would have to deal with it if he was just a little serious. But ideologists of course see the challenge in mastering all hostile technology. That is the systemic reason why they have to keep the monetary system under control.
 

[bejapuskas]

Yes please, I like to get down to earth with the videos once in a while  

[Norbert Lennartz]

37 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

1 hour ago, electroBeam said:

yes, but society is not useful. 

Spoiled rich kid who doesn’t appreciate nor understand the privilege he’s been given and doesn’t understand that he’d be dead if it weren’t for the luxury of his privilege. 

The illusion of society, as electroBeam has well explained, cannot feed us. It only feeds the illusion of the society plumber.
With or without the state, they are the same people,
with the state, on the other hand, the plumbers of society and their journeymen are equipped only with privileges to feed us a bowl of beans instead of the food we would have. 

[mandyjw]

I just had this thought while I was out running, the biggest point of conflict I see between liberals and conservatives is the difference with how they look at work and work ethic. Conservatives have a high work ethic as their highest value while liberals are more about working intelligently and enjoying life outside of work. Conservatives want to be free to enjoy the fruits of their labor without taxation of being dragged down by those who do not have a high work ethic. Liberals want to enjoy freedom without being enslaved to work. So I guess in the end the disagreement is not really about work but what their idea of freedom is. 

Personally I've found finding a balance between the two to be one of the biggest challenges of my life. It seems like it should be a really simple thing but it goes deep spiritually and existentially. 

[Norbert Lennartz]

We must once again revisit the concepts of freedom and limitation.

What is freedom and limitation in our being?
Freedom is being. Limitation is being. They are the same. They are only being.

What is freedom and limitation in our actions?
They are both ideas or mental constructions. It is thinking. Thoughts are free. Suffering limits.

So what is the limitation that Leo speaks of? It is suffering.
It has nothing to do with the biological limitation as a living being.

[kieranperez]

@Norbert Lennartz there needs to be a form of pest control for nondual keyboard jokeys like you on the Internet. I dare you to spew this garbage to a enlightened master looking you dead in the eyes. 

Its clear you’re not here to learn.

Edited June 8, 2019 by kieranperez

[Joseph Maynor]

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

@Norbert Lennartz there needs to be a form of pest control for nondual keyboard jokeys like you on the Internet. I dare you to spew this garbage to a enlightened master looking you dead in the eyes. 

Its clear you’re not here to learn.

You're so loyal.   So much so that it's become a trap for you.  You need to apply the paradox of loyalty and independence.  See how white-knuckle clinging to one side of this paradox to the exclusion to the other creates a lock for you and suffering for you and for others?

Edited June 8, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Norbert Lennartz]

5 hours ago, kieranperez said:

What I’m communicating to you again is the fact that something doesn’t need to be existentially true in order to be useful. As that’s all that learning in the relative domain is.

Learn this: What is the difference between a social life without a state and a social life with a state is exclusively the application of coercion. Fact.  You enable the state to apply coercion. For laws, no matter where for. The question is not what the state is good for, but what coercion is good for.
Answer: Coercion is good for self-defense. But the state is not a means of self-defence. There is no case of self-defence. That means you are the attacker. That would put me in the situation of self-defence. But I can't take the state for that. So the state tends to serve exclusively the side of aggression. And that is here what coercion also is good for. Coercion is good for criminals.
So in the end we talk about the difference between a social life without a state and an asocial life with a state.
That is an irrefutable fact, not a cheap opinion.

[Shadowraix]

@Norbert Lennartz   Beating a dead horse now aren't ya? 

[tenta]

Yes, stage yellow politics content would be good

Edited June 8, 2019 by tenta

[Joseph Maynor]

6 minutes ago, tenta said:

Yes, stage yellow politics content would be good

Agreed.  Or else stay away from politics.  Too much political mental masturbation on the Web as it is.  Every Ego wants to push its political beliefs so it feels more right and more safe and more mature (less idiotic).  Oftentimes, it's people who are trying to resolve a trauma related to idiocy that gravitate toward politics.  Moreover, in many instances these people clearly give off an energy of not having their heads screwed on tight.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Apparition of Jack]

4 hours ago, Norbert Lennartz said:

The illusion of society, as electroBeam has well explained, cannot feed us. It only feeds the illusion of the society plumber.
With or without the state, they are the same people,
with the state, on the other hand, the plumbers of society and their journeymen are equipped only with privileges to feed us a bowl of beans instead of the food we would have. 

You have turned money into a false idol and put all of your faith in it out of a misplaced impression it will help you rise above your survival-based fears. It will not, and in fact your faith in it as a false god will only enslave you to them.

Only radical compassion, insight, open-mindedness and an ability and willingness to face the confusion, contorting, confronting truths about reality and society can do that.

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, electroBeam said:

most of these sane people don't take that approach. Sadhguru tries to convince you, but doesn't force you to take on his ideology. He respects you as a human and stops encroaching on you at a certain point. One of the teachers in your kriya booklist said you would be a fountain of truth, for others to drink out of.(notice not a warlord of truth)

This is the approach of most spiritual teachers, getting together and limiting your right to be a devil is usually a tactic stage blue tries out

This is false.

Spiritual teachers live within larger societies and governments which make their work possible.

Sadhguru's ashram can only exist because of a massively complex government which protects it from destruction and ensures his property rights. Otherwise a horde of Mongols would invade it, burn it to the ground, rape all the women, kill all the men, and enslave all the children.

So while of course Sadhguru himself will never go fight off Mongol hordes, the only reason he doesn't have to force anything on you is because he has a government army and police force do the dirty work for him. They stop the devils so that there can be peace enough for enlightenment to be taught "without force". Yet if you go to his ashram and start acting like a devil, they will call the police and force you off the property.

Of course Sadhguru is wise enough to understand and appreciate all this. The problem is, you aren't.

You fundamentally do not understand what government is, how it came to be, and why it is necessary.

No monastary tolerates devilry. They will kick you out if you don't follow their very strict rules. The devilry that you guys get away with on this forum would never ever be allowed in a serious spiritual school. Half of you would have been kicked out long ago. Some of you would have been slapped hard across the face for your foolishness. Most of you would never have even been allowed inside in the first place.

[mandyjw]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No monastary tolerates devilry. They will kick you out if you don't follow their very strict rules. The devilry that you guys get away with on this forum would never ever be allowed in a serious spiritual school. Half of you would have been kicked out long ago. Some of you would have been slapped hard across the face for your foolishness. Most of you would never have even been allowed inside in the first place.

"The war of the rebellion freed the slaves."

Like you said, life is a can of worms and then you die. 

[DrewNows]

7 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

Instead, how to join together the Conscious Circle of Humanity...?

What kind of idea or message can give others trust regardless of Spiral Dynamics model worldview?

It will conjoin on its own through the shift in understanding ourselves in relation to societies created limitations. Not sure when these limits will be reached that will force the majority to turn focus back around inward but I assume it will be a response to the cultural affects from technology 

SD model, hmm I would say the personal experience of one’s life 

[Norbert Lennartz]

56 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sadhguru's ashram can only exist because of a massively complex government which protects it from destruction and ensures his property rights. Otherwise a horde of Mongols would invade it, burn it to the ground, rape all the women, kill all the men, and enslave all the children.

Well, that would be some kind of self-defense, if it were. But it is not. The real social life is shaped by voluntarily cooperative people. And these people form their protection through the interaction of cooperative colaboration against criminals. 
A criminal has no chance to corrupt real justice, because everywhere bounty hunters, detective agencies, laboratories etc. are eager to get orders that the convicts have to pay.
Property is the result of this accepted social action of cooperation. The state, on the other hand, is first and foremost an infringer of property and protects itself in the process.

[Norbert Lennartz]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You fundamentally do not understand what government is, how it came to be, and why it is necessary.

Read Franz Oppenheimer, The State.

[Leo Gura]

33 minutes ago, Norbert Lennartz said:

Well, that would be some kind of self-defense, if it were. But it is not. The real social life is shaped by voluntarily cooperative people. And these people form their protection through the interaction of cooperative colaboration against criminals. 
A criminal has no chance to corrupt real justice, because everywhere bounty hunters, detective agencies, laboratories etc. are eager to get orders that the convicts have to pay.
Property is the result of this accepted social action of cooperation. The state, on the other hand, is first and foremost an infringer of property and protects itself in the process.

Ahahahaha....

Silly libertarian...

[Norbert Lennartz]

@Leo Gura

Leo, you have a serious problem with pigeonholes.

I am an expert in the field. And I am not biased by libertarian thinking. But you have developed an aversion that blinds you.

With this basic attitude you have no chance at all to fathom this exciting topic. Not at all, because you yourself have to think about how social life, starting with Robinson on an island etc, can work, in order to compare these things with historical records.

Without all the basic work you are on a lost job. Arrogance doesn't help. And I say that because I mean well with you, because you have the abilities of a serious thinker.

But if these abilities go spilled in the political field, as so often, then I advise you to keep your hands off the subject.