Leo if you lock the thread I can't respond to it - The title of the thread was a joke

[PatternsFormThought]

@Leo Gura

"The way you frame this whole topic is trolling and demonstrates a lack of nuance.

If you want to discuss things feel free to start specific threads, but just ranting against meditation or enlightenment without acknowledging the vast diversity of legit spiritual paths is just spreading your own ignorance.

Nuance! Naunce! Nuance!

All of this is much more complicated than you currently understand.

Be here to learn, not to rant."

I'll end with what I stated in this thread again:

If you have a retort, please add otherwise censoring me without rebuttal that is more nuanced isn't fair. I'm free and open to whatever ethics are being played and don't mind accordingly regarding what actions are taken, merely just making this point.

"

One thing I'm noticing about Lisa Cairns for example (I listed her above - she's interesting to listen to) is her trivialisation and in doing so a kind of demonising of survival (in the video I listed above), now although I think its appropriate to critically think about the nature of our existence and why we continue to exist there is little utility in generating negative/related conclusions about those that seem to be reasons.

She's getting people to think about their existence, I think that's great, but it seems like she's leap frogging to "survival doesn't matter".

How would she know?

She wouldn't.

This is just a fun play she's having in this moment with beliefs and Leo does the same thing. 

There's nothing wrong with it per se, its amusing, but I'm not sure they're really aware of what they're doing as much as they think they are or of which they need to be in order to speak sensibly about the subject.

Many people in self help are often irrational like this without realising. Its not their fault of course, its just a happening in real time, but its important for us to be aware of so we can avoid doing it.

Its not a survival game that's being played, it's a belief game that's being played, that's all. "

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by PatternsFormThought

[Leo Gura]

@PatternsFormThought You have been warned and if you keep spreading ignorance here agressively will get you banned.

Be here with an open mind to learn, not to spread your ideas.

I have no interest in retorting you given your attitude and arrogance.

[PatternsFormThought]

" spreading ignorance here agressively you will be banned."

@Leo Gura

Belief without evidence, logical or otherwise. There's only a few other alternatives that can be reached if someone wishes to make a claim without argument like this.

I'm really very unsure what the big fuss is about.

Edited June 6, 2019 by PatternsFormThought

[Rilles]

Oh man, you take yourself very seriously dont you

[CreamCat]

My thread was locked without explanation. You were luckier.

[tedens]

2 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

My thread was locked without explanation. You were luckier.

or maybe more hopeful

[PatternsFormThought]

@Leo Gura if you have a specific sentence, paragraph in mind that you'd like me to more properly address please state which one so I can do so accordingly along with addressing any further questions you may have in relation to said statements. 

Stating a claim as you have though without the necessary room for discussion in order to generate elaboration that leads closer to reason however is something that isn't going to be entertaining to cogency. In fact the reasoning I've provided in this comment is enough to say that your actions have only accomplished what you've stated, the spreading of ignorance in the form censoring something from someone that was sincerely attempting to address dogma on the subject. Censorship only leads to the perpetuation of dogma, as already stated, I was merely being humorous regarding the thread title, I note this immediately in the original thread.

Edited June 6, 2019 by PatternsFormThought

[ColdFacts]

17 minutes ago, PatternsFormThought said:

@Leo Gura if you have a specific sentence, paragraph in mind that you'd like me to more properly address please state which one so I can do so accordingly along with addressing any further questions you may have in relation to said statements. 

Stating a claim as you have though without the necessary room for discussion in order to generate elaboration that leads closer to reason however is something that isn't going to be entertaining to cogency. In fact the reasoning I've provided in this comment is enough to say that your actions have only accomplished what you've stated, the spreading of ignorance in the form censoring something from someone that was sincerely attempting to address dogma on the subject. Censorship only leads to the perpetuation of dogma, as already stated, I was merely being humorous regarding the thread title, I note this immediately in the original thread.

Oh you like logic? So what, if people don't like to have a certain authority over their mental activity and beliefs then it's up to you to show them the benefits of it in a way that they accept, if you can't do that you should stop judging others. While what you are saying might be true it doesn't mean that others deserve to have it so as well. You get censored all the time even in your own and and now you expect reality to be different, play by the rules or quit.

[Shadowraix]

The tricky thing here is exactly that, nuance. Your words aren't without some validity, but it largely depends on the angle you are looking at it from and if your projections on how they think are correct.

For example:

Quote

There's nothing wrong with the amount of theorisation, I could do it non-stop. Exactly what is at a loss if it is good theorisation in a good state with more positive than negative outcomes compared to any other activity?

I recommend looking at the dogma you have in relation to theorisation, "be careful" on this topic is another common thread which points to an irrational fear.

This lacks context of what I was trying to get. There is inherently nothing wrong with theorising all day long. You are correct. Me saying be careful was to not point to a fear of theorizing but to be aware of when theorizing starts to take you away from your goal. And in this work for many practice matters just as much as theory. But it becomes easy to get lost in the mental masturbation. Awareness here is key so you don't get lost. A lot of times when something is said to be good or bad it is in relation to some goal or objective but without the proper perspective and context the intent could be easily lost and misinterpreted. It could even come off as demonization.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Shadowraix

[PatternsFormThought]

"if you can't do that you should stop judging others."

@ColdFactsI'm not, merely disagreeing with a perspective does not equal someone judging someone else. If I believe that most of life is just a game of beliefs, there's probably a low likelihood that I'm going to be judging anyone. Here I'm noticing events, sharing observations in relation to those events.

If people do not wish to have any influence over their beliefs, not that I said this or meant it to be inferred, I wouldn't waste my time on someone that wasn't trying to be reasonable.

What would be the point? I have more cool things to do.

I haven't violated any rules as far as I can tell so far, no rule has been clearly shown (evidence - argumentation)  to be in violation.

The problem with humans in general I've noticed is they tend to get offended in the context of disagreement, given this discussion board is more likely to attract people interested in self improvement my advice here is to become comfortable with disagreement. Sensible disagreement with oneself is extremely important in my experience at improving beliefs. Beliefs pave the way to a better life I've found, we can't avoid it, a simple example is your beliefs playing out in relation to this response I'm having right now which I'm guessing, merely based on the pattern so far, is going to be negative. Once the human nervous system gets emotionally locked, until this is unhinged confirmation bias will be hard to escape. So if you like, I can play this belief game with you and we can just pretend that I've done something wrong here as opposed to making a harmless thread title that was just me having a laugh.

@Shadowraix

Agreed.

"Me saying be careful was to not point to a fear of theorizing but to be aware of when theorizing starts to take you away from your goal. "

What seems to be occurring though is that people are connecting the need for meditation with the reduction of unnecessary theorisation when instead as noted, simply focusing on (1) the better theorisation in relation to belief and the art of thought (2) utilising intelligence to direct self control in regulating the energy of ones mind, say silencing it as necessary, would more likely return a more sensible result. 

On that note, if there is to be any meditation whatsoever the kind that I recommend is as illustrated at the 32 minute mark of the following video. Here they teach a person to shift from one emotion to the next, this can obviously be transposed to the activity of shifting to any number of states. This is more pertinent to point two.

My prediction is that this would lead to improvements in peoples well being more than meditation, especially in the context where people attempt to treat the subject of thought and thinking in an un-nuanced way of which I've said Eckhart does. To reiterate the above problem noted here with disagreement:  Simply stating that I disagree with someone does not mean I don't like them or think they don't have interesting things to say. I like Eckhart and I've learned a lot from him. Disagreement is not negative, unquestioned beliefs are (in comparison).

"But it becomes easy to get lost in the mental masturbation. "

Yeah, so just create systems and try to improve those systems.

This goes at the heart of what I said in the thread regarding (1) complete disidentification (belief wise) (2) striving for complete identification (cognitively - increasingly better act of differentiating what is happening, etc).

To me, mental masturbation is just due to over-identification. Because if you're not identified, well you're just going to try and limit it to what seems most sensible relative to the context of the cognitive resources you have at that time.

Edited June 6, 2019 by PatternsFormThought

[ColdFacts]

@PatternsFormThought You should look deeper then, obviously no one like to think of themselves as not logical or someone who is not grounded, i mean their weaknesses like to build over such concepts. My point was that if people are stuck(something you are failing to see) on serving those feelings and beliefs blindly then you should not expect anything from them just because you do the right thing. Whatever observation you like to call it has some impact on others, something you should know and be responsible of it, if you're not even aware of it then that's even worse. All those things i said can be sensed from your words, all can see it here, maybe it wasn't your intention but it's there.

[PatternsFormThought]

@ColdFacts People have no reason to look at themselves a certain way (other than for practical purposes) from my perspective, simply because there is no self. Happy to share further evidence here. I've already stated I don't try to change beliefs of people that are being unreasonable; unreasonable here is simply a situation that is untenable in as much as saying that I can't be bothered with it, I'm enjoying the awareness I have at that moment to care for related conversation. That's all that needs to be stated from my end so far. If you have any questions, would like to discuss things more by all means we can go further. Regardless please feel free to believe what you wish in relation to our interaction, I am not phased at all.

Edited June 6, 2019 by PatternsFormThought

[ColdFacts]

2 minutes ago, PatternsFormThought said:

@ColdFacts People have no reason to look at themselves a certain way (other than for practical purposes) from my perspective, simply because there is no self. Happy to share further evidence here. I've already stated I don't try to change beliefs of people that are being unreasonable; unreasonable here is simply a situation that is untenable in as much as saying that I can't be bothered with it, I'm enjoying the awareness I have at that moment to care for related conversation. That's all that needs to be stated from my end so far. If you have any questions, would like to discuss things more by all means we can go further. Regardless please feel free to believe what you wish in relation to our interaction, I am not phased at all.

My point is that there is actually nothing wrong in talking with such deluded or blind followers as long as you have no personal benefit or expectation on this, you will probably learn the reward of this in the future.

[Shadowraix]

@PatternsFormThought Have you ever looked into kriya yoga or other forms of yoga for this kind of work?

As far as I am aware, eastern yoga was another method used to achieve such shifts in consciousness.

[PatternsFormThought]

@ColdFacts It can be interesting but interesting here has its limits relative to alternatives. Deluded people are more capable of throwing things.

 

@Shadowraix

My knowledge is less than 5% concerning Yoga, so feel free to improve my knowledge here. I would be grateful.

What are your thoughts on the described method in the video?

Edited June 6, 2019 by PatternsFormThought

[whoareyou]

@PatternsFormThought @Leo Gura Patterns actually made a very solid point which I mentioned many times already. Too many people in the spiritual community are seeking "enlightenment", which will never come - it's just an idea. "Enlightenment" is not something that you can achieve. Being in the present moment, and seeing reality as it is, without illusion of the self permanently - is enlightenment.

Too many people have "enlightenment" ideology, which ironically keeps them from "enlightenment".

Edited June 6, 2019 by whoareyou

[Norbert Lennartz]

yeah

Enlightenment

enlightenment

the Enlightenment

anti-Enlightenment

post-Enlightenment

pre-Enlightenment 

Counter-Enlightenment

early Enlightenment

Enlightenment figures

enlightenment ideals

enlightenment movement

Enlightenment philosopher

Enlightenment theologian

Enlightenment theology

late Enlightenment

popular enlightenment [capitalization varies]

pre-enlightenment

pseudo-Enlightenment

public enlightenment

self-enlightenment

shallow Enlightenment

(of the) Enlightenment 

Age of Enlightenment

early German Enlightenment

enlightenment-based worldview

great enlightenment philosopher

child of the Enlightenment

literature of the Enlightenment

philosopher of the Enlightenment

philosophy of the Enlightenment

proponents of the Enlightenment

Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed immaturity.

Reich Minister of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda

Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda

Dialectic of Enlightenment

Enlightenment Guaranteed

[Bill W]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@PatternsFormThought You have been warned and if you keep spreading ignorance here agressively will get you banned.

Be here with an open mind to learn, not to spread your ideas.

I have no interest in retorting you given your attitude and arrogance.

Leo I just don't see this aggression you refer to. Honestly I don't.  There's far worse on here almost daily. And as for ignorance and spreading ideas. 75% of the forum are probably guilty of this to some degree surely. Ignorance even if it is that, is not a fixed state. This place is an ignorance antidote to a degree. Some of us are in need of the therapy on here! The OP seems genuine to me. Members seem actually willing to engage with the OP.

[Bill W]

8 hours ago, Rilles said:

Oh man, you take yourself very seriously dont you

And others on here don't? It's not even clear who you are referring to.

Edit. Sorry this post of mine is not relevant to anything really. Ignore!

Edited June 6, 2019 by Bill W
Stupidity

[Psychonaut]

I prefer when topics stay open so all the trash in peoples minds can be exposed and eradicated. 

If there is no willingness to change ways eventually people will just ignore something and become indifferent which is better than just shooting something down.