How might level of consciousness and spiral dynamics stage differ?

[lmfao]

Enlightenment is about the dissolving of the self and the end of duality (which goes beyond language), and spiral dynamics is a discussion we make in the realm of the relative and so this discussion is inevitably in the realm of the relative. And thats fine.

How is it that someone can be very high consciousness but a low stage SD stage? I'm trying to imagine a high consciousness racist person for example. Enlightened people "know" that everything is one and that all their belief structures are illusory, but they will automatically act upon those various belief structures. For example an enlightened person will act upon the belief structure that 2+2=4 in their day to day life. And so perhaps there exists this high consciousness person, who despite knowing all his belief structures are groundless and come from the void, has the default belief structure that black people are inferior and hence acts upon it?

So my point is, despite the fact that enlightened people know that their belief structures are groundless at the end of the day, they still have certain beliefs that they automatically act upon. Samadhi isn't going to make you think that it's a good idea to jump in front of a moving car under the pretence that you don't know what will happen once you jump in front of it, neither will it stop you from using logic and aspects of the materialistic paradigm in your day to day life. Your thoughts?

Edited June 5, 2019 by lmfao

[ColdFacts]

You are looking at this like most people look at enlightenment. See most people want to go for the big prize which is enlightenment and thus avoid all the trouble that is beneath it or solve that trouble with enlightenment and so they try everything possible in any way they can to reach this enlightenment but there is one problem, you can't cheat your way up there, they will learn this sooner or latter but mostly when they give up. And this brings us to your post, enlightenment in the genuine form does not contradict any of the lower forms of awareness, they all agree with it even the materialistic level, so basically what you are saying is totally irrelevant. These lower things are illusions compared to something, but people don't mention this because they just copy good stuff and just spit it out like it's their own and end up with all the wrong ideas and contradictions.

[CreamCat]

You can be at stage Green and enjoy demonizing others very much. A stage Blue or Orange person may not enjoy demonizing others.

Edited June 6, 2019 by CreamCat

[ValiantSalvatore]

@lmfao it is most likely good to read about state-stages. Spiral dynamics is about value structutes less moral codes, but value codes. Which drive differences which is very similar, but less judgment based and more behaviour based imo. I can't personally distinguish the two very well. 

For e.g Imagine a shaman being fully enlightend (I did not read the Carlos Castaneda books but he was an antrhopologist being initiated into the modalities of being a shaman) 

He would still be attached to magical thinking the sun is the holy spirit of the reincarnation of god Z. Live in a tribe that is polyamorous and where multiple women take care of multiple infants, so one women in the tribe cares about 2-3, for e.g, infants till they are adults and can go hunting. Still it is one big family in a tribe sense. 

Reading about jhanas could help to have an idea of enlightenment experiences or technically, states of absorption independent of "structure" development in the moral or values line. 

Also, people have a gravity where they are centered according to wilber for instance your gravity can be turqouise and 50% of your responses will come from that stage 33% from a stage higher and one stage lower. Also a person/human/creature/ etc. has one "subset" gravity. Excuse my wording. 

So, you gravity circles around on stage, yet you draw back heavly from another which is your "go to" substage or the bread and butter substage lol. 

This is what I read and can recall. Correct me in case there is an error, im open for feedback in general. 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[ValiantSalvatore]

@lmfao Dissolving the self would be accessing the true self or no self. 

Both are the same. You would become a stream enterer. Your sense and view of identity would vanish completely. 

There are many interesting maps. I always liked to do this as a kid, to lool at world maps geographie and stuff like this. It is relative in a sense, yet this is where the most likly highly advanced or "god" like nuance lies. 

For instance one problem Leo mentioned in his audioreview (new) of the thyroid book, was adressed yesterday by shinzen. The guy had the same problem with cold hands and feet and shinzen told him that it is a "sign" of one of the deepest stages. The guy also had a very good meditation routine of 1h and 30min.

Most do 30min to 20min. So, in contrast he grew very fast and did the work!! 

[lmfao]

@ValiantSalvatore My immediate interpretation of what you said would be that stages are theoretically defined by value structures in contrast to moral structures. It's hard to put into words what that means but thats fine. 

6 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

Which drive differences which is very similar, but less judgment based and more behaviour based imo. I can't personally distinguish the two very well. 

I cant tell the difference very well either. 

 

6 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

Reading about jhanas could help to have an idea of enlightenment experiences or technically, states of absorption independent of "structure" development in the moral or values line. 

.....

Dissolving the self would be accessing the true self or no self. 

Both are the same. You would become a stream enterer. Your sense and view of identity would vanish completely. 

Yeah, with enlightenment you're just dropping resistance to your experience. The fact that you've dropped resistance to your experience does not control what your exact existence is. Enlightened or not enlightened, birds will sing, rivers will flow, the sky will be blue, so someone who is stage purple will just simply be purple even after enlightenment (ofc how enlightenment will transform the nature of that existence with time is a separate matter).

Edited June 6, 2019 by lmfao

[ValiantSalvatore]

@lmfao Yes, I listened to the audiobook the science of enlightenment from shinzen yesteday, he explains the big picture of contemplative practices in the last two chapters. 

He has a friend who has done shamanic rituals or native american ones. Doing sun dances etc. he explains for instance due to onerous life conditions it was easier to enter state-stages. It was not uncommon to enter into Samadhi while they played the drums, their minds settled into the spiritual experience with less resistence, than a moderner, who afterwards will still struggle with a racing mind (not sure if the term exists) because of the complex demands of a modern society. 

There is a ton of nuance. I don't understand most of it yet, I want to read about samskaras for now. 

I have the big picture, yet the devil is in the details... as so often. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[ValiantSalvatore]

12 hours ago, lmfao said:

@ValiantSalvatore My immediate interpretation of what you said would be that stages are theoretically defined by value structures in contrast to moral structures. It's hard to put into words what that means but thats fine

https://examples.yourdictionary.com/difference-between-ethics-morals-and-values.html

 

I googled and checked what the difference is. 

Morals seem to stem out of values and values are internally derived inferences about what is right and wrong. Morals seem to be, what has been thought by others what is right or wrong, so they are an external standard. 

This is what I can make out of it for now. I never looked at it that way. 

 

Or simpler in mbti terms Fi vs Fe

Edited June 7, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[lmfao]

6 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

@lmfao Yes, I listened to the audiobook the science of enlightenment from shinzen yesteday, he explains the big picture of contemplative practices in the last two chapters. 

He has a friend who has done shamanic rituals or native american ones. Doing sun dances etc. he explains for instance due to onerous life conditions it was easier to enter state-stages. It was not uncommon to enter into Samadhi while they played the drums, their minds settled into the spiritual experience with less resistence, than a moderner, who afterwards will still struggle with a racing mind (not sure if the term exists) because of the complex demands of a modern society. 

There is a ton of nuance. I don't understand most of it yet, I want to read about samskaras for now. 

I have the big picture, yet the devil is in the details... as so often. 

Shinzen is great as always, very clear. 

2 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

https://examples.yourdictionary.com/difference-between-ethics-morals-and-values.html

I googled and checked what the difference is. 

Morals seem to stem out of values and values are internally derived inferences about what is right and wrong. Morals seem to be, what has been thought by others what is right or wrong, so they are an external standard. 

This is what I can make out of it for now. I never looked at it that way. 

Ive never developed a huge interest for such semantic discussions

[ValiantSalvatore]

Yeah, I like to see the differences to see the similarities. I like semantics, yet was more making a reference to syntactical aspects as well. 

I don't like to project my meaning of things onto another. 

I see it as an exchange of viewpoints. Anyway I am off topic, so I'll stop right here.

 

[tsuki]

@lmfao You are conflating enlightenment with cognitive development.
Dissolving the self is a purification process. You can be pure without understanding your belief systems.