Unaddicting from Agreement

[flowboy]

I really appreciate your feedback, guys. I've never really talked about this and my friends accept my need for attention, so it's always been a thing in the background.

Now I'm thinking that me being an only child, raised as a mommy's boy, had something to do with it. My mom and I would have this pattern since always where I would ramble about whatever was on my mind and she would listen every day with infinite patience.

[flowboy]

20 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Wanting to agree with people, or wanting to be understood by them isn't a bad thing, we all have that desire, which is just a deeper desire for connection. Just watch yourself as you do it, try to bring in more awareness. 

It's ok to want approval, again it's part of a deeper desire for connection.

Is there a more fulfilling way,or ways that you can get the connection that you seek without relying on these pattern behaviors? 

@mandyjw Good advice probably, thank you. Bringing awareness to it is definitely one thing I must do.

I also understand that desire for connection and being understood is not a bad thing.

I'm just thinking about how much is acceptable. How strong the need is supposed to be, and whether that is a weakness.

Indeed I'm thinking about how to channel this.

Journaling is one. And for most things, there are friends who'd want to hear about it. Still, my need to tell seems not easily satisfied.

[flowboy]

Here is a clip that inspired my thinking:

 

[tsuki]

2 hours ago, flowboy said:

@tsuki, if you could weigh in, that would be great. I perceive you as masterful in this area.

Oh crap, now I'm so pleased with myself that I won't be able to give any solid advice.
Quick, think of something... hmm... let me collect my wits for a bit while I will mention someone I look up to in this regard. @Zigzag Idiot
I'll get back to you when I gain some distance @flowboy. Maybe it's a good idea to inspect what intrigues you about me?
Just please don't post it publicly or I'll have to leave. kill myself.

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by tsuki

[flowboy]

I'm entertaining the thought that this is more about attention (acknowledgement) than approval.

It would be a nice symmetry, because I've also gotten the feedback that I don't acknowledge people in conversation.

Which is true. I don't naturally care a lot about what people say back to me, when I'm just getting to know them. I just want them to respond favorably and like me. My listening skills are reserved for friends only.

Edited June 3, 2019 by flowboy

[Inliytened1]

It sounds like you are growing naturally on your own.  Your noticing where your ego is taking over - such as in the need to be right.  You are also becoming more aware that humility is counter intuitive to the ego, as is honesty and the need to impress or control others.

That is great and just becoming more self aware of these things in one's self is massive growth.  

We all have some of this.  We are all human.  But as we align ourselves with Truth we notice that the more of our egoic mind we can strip away, or transcend, the more at peace we will be and the closer to true liberation.

So i would say you are growing just fine.  Wisdom can often take decades not a few years.   

I'm sure you do meditation practices since you have been on this site for a long time now and so spirituality is not new to you?

[flowboy]

@Inliytened1 Thank you for the positive outlook.

Actually I used to meditate, but I'm not at the moment. I want to work it back in.

[Inliytened1]

@flowboy it's really a key tool in transcending your own ego because the more you are in a state of Being the more in touch with Truth.

[tsuki]

4 hours ago, flowboy said:

I'm a pretty disagreeable person that likes to provoke with his unique, alternate views on things. But I realised that disagreeing with people is still a form of seeking agreement. It's still caring what people think.

Some examples of what I mean:

• Any discussion or debate, online or in real life, where I make an effort to make someone agree with me, and where this serves no clear purpose besides the satisfaction of being right, or the safety of sharing a viewpoint
• Anytime I hear or read that someone is stating things that go against my opinion, may even be offensive to me, and I'd normally want to jump in and correct people
• Anytime I've had an insight about myself, during journaling, therapy or meditation, and I feel the need to share it with a friend or parent
• Anytime I've accomplished something that I'm proud of and I can't wait to tell friends (approval!)
• When I've made a new plan or resolution for my life, and I want to tell people
• When someone asks me about my views/thoughts on something without really being invested in understanding it, and I'm prepared to give the serious complicated answer and lay it all on the table. For example, they don't want to get or give advice, but just satisfy curiosity
• When talking to a girl, trying to be more fun than my normal self

In my particular case, when I'm stuck in disagreeing with people, I do that out of a twisted form of care about them.
I simply cannot let people near me be stupid, or misguided and I mistakenly think that by correcting them, I'm making them wiser.

Inwardly, I believe that everybody is equal and everyone can understand how I perceive things, so I'm simply doing my best to explain my point of view. If it's not being met with openness, this brings about suspicion of stupidity which only makes my explanations even more fierce. Accepting that some people are simply incapable of intellectually understanding something is very difficult for me. That is because it means that my point of view is inherently impossible to share and my mind is only partially useful in communication.

The real problem that underlies bickering is the fact that the mind is used to construct stories that mend broken hearts.
If two emotionally hurt people meet and their stories mismatch, they will try to defend their cohesion by trying to undo the stories of the other. The pain that is being released is not harnessed, but used as fuel for blame, hate and aggression. In that environment, no amount of discussion is ever going to make people agree. In that case, it is much more beneficial to withdraw for your own sake, to stop your personal suffering and harness it for healing. If you're fragile then you're in no position to help anybody.

The need for social approval is in my experience a face of fear of not knowing, of directionlessness.
It may also interlock with the sense of shame or guilt about not amounting to anything in your life. Those feelings are only present if you're in the mindset that you're obliged to be of service to other people, that things (including you) are valuable only through shared agreement.

To stop your need to talk about your insights, you need to realize that by making other people follow them, you're making them cheap. People are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves and having insights of their own. Your insights are just for your own sake, at least until you're comfortable with sharing them, or when people explicitly ask for help. "Explicitly" is relative here, it may also refer to bickering, but you need to be healthy yourself to recognize that.

So, in summary: never help others at the expense of your own well being.
I hope you find some value in my story and peace in your life.

Edited June 3, 2019 by tsuki

[tsuki]

if you have any specific questions that interest you, don't hesitate to ask.

[flowboy]

34 minutes ago, tsuki said:

In my particular case, when I'm stuck in disagreeing with people, I do that out of a twisted form of care about them.
I simply cannot let people near me be stupid, or misguided and I mistakenly think that by correcting them, I'm making them wiser.

Inwardly, I believe that everybody is equal and everyone can understand how I perceive things, so I'm simply doing my best to explain my point of view. If it's not being met with openness, this brings about suspicion of stupidity which only makes my explanations even more fierce. Accepting that some people are simply incapable of intellectually understanding something is very difficult for me.

Wow, that's how it feels for me as well, thank you for wording it so clearly!

 

37 minutes ago, tsuki said:

To stop your need to talk about your insights, you need to realize that by making other people follow them, you're making them cheap. People are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves and having insights of their own. Your insights are just for your own sake, at least until you're comfortable with sharing them, or when people explicitly ask for help.

This will be very useful to me I think.

As always, you've given me a lot to think about. Thank you.

[Flatworld Crusades]

3 hours ago, flowboy said:

@Flatworld Crusades Alright:

Any discussion or debate, online or in real life, where I make an effort to make someone agree with me, and where this serves no clear purpose besides the satisfaction of being right, or the safety of sharing a viewpoint

This feels like it's about controlling people. Needing them to see it my way. And that's because agreement feels safe to us, and disagreement feels unsafe, I think.

Anytime I hear or read that someone is stating things that go against my opinion, may even be offensive to me, and I'd normally want to jump in and correct people

Same. Controlling that they understand my view

Anytime I've had an insight about myself, during journaling, therapy or meditation, and I feel the need to share it with a friend or parent

Need for validation. Attention seeking.

Anytime I've accomplished something that I'm proud of and I can't wait to tell friends (approval!)

Need for validation. Attention seeking.

When I've made a new plan or resolution for my life, and I want to tell people

Need for validation. Attention seeking.

When someone asks me about my views/thoughts on something without really being invested in understanding it, and I'm prepared to give the serious complicated answer and lay it all on the table. For example, they don't want to get or give advice, but just satisfy curiosity

Need for validation. Attention seeking.

When talking to a girl, trying to be more fun than my normal self

Need for validation and traumatic past experience with first love

As Shin says you need to do the inner work.  

For the first two topics you now need to go one level deeper and work out why you need to control people. Why do you need to be right?  Maybe research controlling personalities or similar

for the rest again you need to work out why you seek validation or attention. Is it low self esteem? If so do work on yourself. 

[flowboy]

1 minute ago, Flatworld Crusades said:

As Shin says you need to do the inner work.  

 

4 minutes ago, Flatworld Crusades said:

If so do work on yourself. 

Meaning what, exactly?

[LastThursday]

@flowboy maybe a different way to look at it (yes that's my contrary nature), is not to judge your behaviours as either good or bad as such. Instead what you should aim for is to have more flexibility in how you express yourself. That means in practice having a larger range of behaviours to choose from. When you have a larger range of options, then naturally the less effective behaviours will fall away.

For example:

Say you've had a really good insight you want to share with others. You might perhaps go to the nearest person and do a 'brain dump' in the hope of getting approval or whatever, to validate your idea. That in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. But what other options do you have?

Here are some ideas:

Blog/podcast about your insight.

Find the right people to tell your insight to - i.e. ones who will find it interesting from the outset.

Let the insight stew, in the hope of further insight.

Examine the insight and see whether it's worth telling - not all insights are good insights.

Only give out a small part of the insight, to see how other people react.

And so on...

The idea here is to expand as much as possible how you react and behave in different situations. Experimentation and imagination is key. Over time, the more effective strategies will stick.

[flowboy]

@LastThursday  You're speaking my language!! Thank you my man. I feel like I must try some of these out.

[LastThursday]

@flowboy you're most welcome. Thanks for the approval too! Give me more, more, more....!

[flowboy]

@LastThursday

[Flatworld Crusades]

4 hours ago, flowboy said:

 

Meaning what, exactly?

To work on yourself you need to do a few things. Firstly recognise there is a problem, which you  have done . You then find that you are "stuck", so repeating the same behaviour over and over and getting frustrated that you aren't spiritually growing or growing slowly. The issue with being stuck is that you can't recognise what it is in your behaviour that is causing you conflict because for the most part you believe that your behaviour is correct.

When you get into a discussion online with someone who has a different opinion to you, you attempt to change their mind to agree with you. I assume that this the kind of discussion that turns into a pointless debate. You have said that you're being controlling. A couple of things here, firstly why do they have to have the same opinion as you? Are you most often right? Does that mean their opinion is valueless, stupid, unintelligent? If you get into an argument or heated discussion it indicates to me that your opinion of them is that they are inferior to you. This is where you need to affront your beliefs and values and work on that belief to resolve how to remove and replace it. This is where your meditation etc comes in.

You can stop yourself from engaging in the discussion just because you think you should, but abstaining from the conversations doesn't address your belief system issue. You won't move forward because the root cause hasn't been addressed. You still believe that it is ok to debate and argue over certain issues trying to control the others person. You need to see that being triggered to engage in a negative way to debate is an issue that needs addressing. It's controlling, offensive and arrogant. You can change the way you engage online, but the gains you want are only going to come, I believe, with maturing your belief system. 

[flowboy]

@Flatworld Crusades  I think you are heavily projecting and really missing the mark here. I am baring my soul, expecting to be met with respect and responsibility, apparently to be rewarded with judgment and immaturity. I am willing to look into aspects of me that I share with most people, whereas you seem to be trying to demonize me for what I shared. You abused the power I gave you.

You have crossed a line. Please don't respond again.

[Shin]

3 hours ago, flowboy said:

@Flatworld Crusades  I think you are heavily projecting and really missing the mark here. I am baring my soul, expecting to be met with respect and responsibility, apparently to be rewarded with judgment and immaturity. I am willing to look into aspects of me that I share with most people, whereas you seem to be trying to demonize me for what I shared. You abused the power I gave you.

You have crossed a line. Please don't respond again.

That tells me she has touched something right though