Unaddicting from Agreement

[flowboy]

I'm playing with the idea to try to "detox" from agreement seeking and approval seeking.

I would like some input on how to do that.

@tsuki, if you could weigh in, that would be great. I perceive you as masterful in this area.

I'm a pretty disagreeable person that likes to provoke with his unique, alternate views on things. But I realised that disagreeing with people is still a form of seeking agreement. It's still caring what people think.

Some examples of what I mean:

• Any discussion or debate, online or in real life, where I make an effort to make someone agree with me, and where this serves no clear purpose besides the satisfaction of being right, or the safety of sharing a viewpoint
• Anytime I hear or read that someone is stating things that go against my opinion, may even be offensive to me, and I'd normally want to jump in and correct people
• Anytime I've had an insight about myself, during journaling, therapy or meditation, and I feel the need to share it with a friend or parent
• Anytime I've accomplished something that I'm proud of and I can't wait to tell friends (approval!)
• When I've made a new plan or resolution for my life, and I want to tell people
• When someone asks me about my views/thoughts on something without really being invested in understanding it, and I'm prepared to give the serious complicated answer and lay it all on the table. For example, they don't want to get or give advice, but just satisfy curiosity
• When talking to a girl, trying to be more fun than my normal self

Reasons I want to stop these behaviours:

• I have a lot of trouble taking action if nobody in my environment backs me up. For example, I wanted to get into pickup for years, but didn't because no one I knew was. I wanted to get into tantra years ago, but forgot about it since none of my then-friends would understand. I started a business but gave up on the first hurdle, also because I didn't feel secure since no one I knew was an entrepreneur.
  I feel pretty heavily weighed down by this need for my environment to validate my actions and views.
• Debates are a LOT of wasted energy, nobody learns from them, they just dig their heels in the sand more
• Being right is addictive and not useful
• I feel like I could evolve faster if I didn't try to get feedback and approval on every minor insight and breakthrough.
• I think that to be successful, you have to be able to trust your own mind even if nobody agrees
• Approval-seeking behaviour in conversation makes me less attractive

How I picture changing that:

• Give my opinion one time, clearly, when asked for advice, on a forum topic or in a team meeting, and ignore all debate that ensues. If necessary, change topic or repeat statement.
• Don't spill all the beans unless someone really wants to know. Don't give serious answers (even though I love to hear myself philosophise) unless my help is needed or someone is trying to help me.
• When I feel proud of something, journal instead of blab.
• When I have a EUREKA moment, journal and embody it instead and wait for people to notice the change.

 

What do you think?

Edited June 3, 2019 by flowboy

[Flatworld Crusades]

Hey Flowboy you've gone to quite a bit of effort to describe your situation.  What's  missing for me is the "why" you want to change. As an example you say "Being right is addictive and not useful". I feel you could go a layer of so  deeper. What I mean is  "Being right" is often about triumphing over another, having you and your beliefs as the winner. It's not that it's not useful, it's egotistical, demanding and controlling. It's these things that you need to address.

Just some thoughts

 

FWC 

[flowboy]

Some more reasons:

• I want to be an entrepreneur. An entrepreneur is a leader. A leader doesn't react to contradicting viewpoints and wastes no energy on them.
• To be a pioneer, I must dare to be alone. To keep faith in the plan even though everyone disapproves and loses faith
• I notice that I compulsively brag to friends everytime I have sex with a new person or gain a new insight. I noticed I am the only person I know who does that.

Edited June 3, 2019 by flowboy

[Flatworld Crusades]

2 minutes ago, flowboy said:

Some more reasons:

• I notice that I compulsively brag to friends everytime I have sex with a new person or gain a new insight. I noticed I am the only person I know who does that.

Why do you do this? Why do you need to brag to your friends. Are you compensating, covering up.? There has to be a reason that explains your behaviour. It's that reason that you need to learn to counter

[flowboy]

@Flatworld Crusades Good question. I suppose it feels like if nobody knows about it, it didn't count/happen/matter. Hmm...

Makes me wonder whether I would prioritize things differently if I was not allowed to tell anyway.

The sex thing has to do with overcompensating for some bullying in high school. For new insights, it doesn't, but I just really really want to share them and have them validated by someone. Otherwise it's just me thinking up crazy stuff, doesn't feel as real

Edited June 3, 2019 by flowboy

[flowboy]

I feel like part of this is pretty common among people (wanting to share)

[Flatworld Crusades]

2 minutes ago, flowboy said:

@Flatworld Crusades Good question. I suppose it feels like if nobody knows about it, it didn't count/happen/matter. Hmm...

Makes me wonder whether I would prioritize things differently if I was not allowed to tell anyway.

Let  me see if I get this, if nobody knows you had sex then you might as well not have, because having sex is all about bragging to your mates?

things might be different if you chose not to tell, rather than not allowed to tell. 

[Shin]

Maybe the only reason you chase girls and sex is to prove something to yourself and others.

Apparently it's never enough.

[Flatworld Crusades]

3 minutes ago, flowboy said:

I feel like part of this is pretty common among people (wanting to share)

I agree we all share with our friends, to a point.

[flowboy]

@Flatworld Crusades  It feels like it's an important part of the fun, yes. Actually, I stopped most of my sharing of sexual encounters, and I feel like I have all this built-up sharing energy that can go nowhere.

It's actually not different from having been on a really cool vacation and really wanting/needing to share the story

[flowboy]

8 minutes ago, Shin said:

Maybe the only reason you chase girls and sex is to prove something to yourself and others.

Apparently it's never enough.

I wouldn't say "only" reason, that's too simplistic. I see sex as one of the few hedonistic pleasures that have no ill health effects if done right, and I value it like I value being able to play and enjoy life in other ways. Also not a lot of effort is going into chasing these days, I'm just meeting women and making time for them.

And then there's the aspect of the unpopular bullied kid that still can't believe women like him now.

Sometimes, he makes me do things to prove that I can.

Edited June 3, 2019 by flowboy

[Gili Trawangan]

46 minutes ago, flowboy said:

Approval-seeking behaviour in conversation makes me less attractive

Notice how you want to stop seeking approval in order to get more approval. It's still seeking approval.

[Flatworld Crusades]

@flowboy you have a laundry list of issues, reasons etc here.  I would suggest you go through each one and attach a root cause to each, eg attention seeking, belief that you are superior, etc. Then condense the list above down to a manageable list.

[flowboy]

@Gili Trawangan

If you conflate the two levels of approval, yes. I'll be more specific: it was pointed out to me, that when under pressure (or feeling judged/evaluated) I tend to speak with mannerisms that clearly indicate I want the other person to like what I say.

I want to change this, so that the other person can trust what I say.

 

 

[flowboy]

14 minutes ago, Flatworld Crusades said:

you have a laundry list of issues, reasons etc here.  I would suggest you go through each one and attach a root cause to each, eg attention seeking, belief that you are superior, etc. Then condense the list above down to a manageable list.

@Flatworld Crusades Alright:

Any discussion or debate, online or in real life, where I make an effort to make someone agree with me, and where this serves no clear purpose besides the satisfaction of being right, or the safety of sharing a viewpoint

This feels like it's about controlling people. Needing them to see it my way. And that's because agreement feels safe to us, and disagreement feels unsafe, I think.

Anytime I hear or read that someone is stating things that go against my opinion, may even be offensive to me, and I'd normally want to jump in and correct people

Same. Controlling that they understand my view

Anytime I've had an insight about myself, during journaling, therapy or meditation, and I feel the need to share it with a friend or parent

Need for validation. Attention seeking.

Anytime I've accomplished something that I'm proud of and I can't wait to tell friends (approval!)

Need for validation. Attention seeking.

When I've made a new plan or resolution for my life, and I want to tell people

Need for validation. Attention seeking.

When someone asks me about my views/thoughts on something without really being invested in understanding it, and I'm prepared to give the serious complicated answer and lay it all on the table. For example, they don't want to get or give advice, but just satisfy curiosity

Need for validation. Attention seeking.

When talking to a girl, trying to be more fun than my normal self

Need for validation and traumatic past experience with first love

[Shin]

Good

So now do the real inner work

[mandyjw]

Wanting to agree with people, or wanting to be understood by them isn't a bad thing, we all have that desire, which is just a deeper desire for connection. Just watch yourself as you do it, try to bring in more awareness. 

It's ok to want approval, again it's part of a deeper desire for connection.

Is there a more fulfilling way,or ways that you can get the connection that you seek without relying on these pattern behaviors? 

[flowboy]

5 minutes ago, Shin said:

So now do the real inner work

@Shin Such as what, specifically? My idea was to try an outside-in approach, starting with behaviours, to get me more triggered and the motivations more clear. I take it you don't think that will work?

[Shin]

Just now, flowboy said:

@Shin Such as what, specifically? My idea was to try an outside-in approach, starting with behaviours, to get me more triggered and the motivations more clear. I take it you don't think that will work?

Can you give me an example of what you were gonna do about it ?

[flowboy]

@Shin

1 hour ago, flowboy said:

• Give my opinion one time, clearly, when asked for advice, on a forum topic or in a team meeting, and ignore all debate that ensues. If necessary, change topic or repeat statement.
• Don't spill all the beans unless someone really wants to know. Don't give serious answers (even though I love to hear myself philosophise) unless my help is needed or someone is trying to help me.
• When I feel proud of something, journal instead of blab.
• When I have a EUREKA moment, journal and embody it instead and wait for people to notice the change.

So, keep my insights to myself and inhibit the impulse to tell people what's on my mind, unless it's clear that they can benefit, of course.

The thing is, nobody really is dying to know that I did a little work on myself here, or had some musings about my entrepreneurial ambitions there, anyway. Seems like it would be handy to be okay without having to share.

Edited June 3, 2019 by flowboy