I fear I have one itis (crush) for this girl and it's poisoning me

[DrewNows]

@flowboy completely disagree about him needing to get rejected. That’s not the way to get rejected. Not only will he be hurting himself but her as well (I know from experience)  

Its apparent you can’t hold a genuine friendship at this time @billiesimon so it is important you simply begin the work on your mindset and do not hang out with your “friend” until you have started dating other girls. (You can simply come up with excuses if she reaches out) 

Your black and white thinking (girls can be a friend or a date) is completely unnecessary and categorizing them in your head this way will serve no one well

Edited June 2, 2019 by DrewNows

[flowboy]

3 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

do not hang out with your “friend” until you have started dating other girls. (You can simply come up with excuses if she reaches out) 

The problem started when he was scared to be honest about what he wanted. Ending the friendship with excuses is just more of the same: dishonesty to avoid biting the bullet.

[billiesimon]

2 minutes ago, flowboy said:

The problem started when he was scared to be honest about what he wanted. Ending the friendship with excuses is just more of the same: dishonesty to avoid biting the bullet.

You nailed it. 
I AM the one who started this mess.

Because I was "acting" as a friend to hesitate and to avoid taking steps forward.
Now I'm paying the price. And I'm willing to pay it, because now I want to end this dishonesty and become authentic.

[DrewNows]

Just now, flowboy said:

The problem started when he was scared to be honest about what he wanted. Ending the friendship with excuses is just more of the same: dishonesty to avoid biting the bullet.

He’s not ending the friendship. He will simply be unavailable for a month or so to work on his dating game and mindset 

The only bullet is his way of thinking and inauthenticity. Why hurt someone else when they aren’t the problem? He has already admitted to not being willing to be her friend if she rejects him. He needs to go out and be authentic, daring, masculine and learn. Suffering does not improve these areas in of itself 

[flowboy]

@billiesimon  There you go!

You'll see it hurts, but it's not as bad as it seems. And this courage from being honest this time, you will carry forward into the next time you will meet a girl.

Also there's a big chance that she knows already, and will respect you for being able to say it finally. Could become a real friendship from there.

Edited June 2, 2019 by flowboy

[billiesimon]

9 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

Your black and white thinking (girls can be a friend or a date) is completely unnecessary and categorizing them in your head this way will serve no one well

Well, it's not black and white thinking, it's truth. Objective truth.

If you friendzone yourself she will lose respect for you and see you as a loser, a guy who is nice and pleasant, but still a useless loser.

Girls date assholes NOT because they like bad behaviour, but because assholes are honest and sincere with their interest and their decisions to date someone.

That's also why girls love good guys who are strong and radically honest. Because they both have good heart and strong willpower.

 

I've been a nice loser guy, so it's just normal that she doesn't respect me and sees me as a puppet.

[DrewNows]

4 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

You nailed it. 
I AM the one who started this mess.

Because I was "acting" as a friend to hesitate and to avoid taking steps forward.
Now I'm paying the price. And I'm willing to pay it, because now I want to end this dishonesty and become authentic.

It’s not a mess, only you are the mess. Take care of your shit and leave her out of it. Maybe in a month or 2 you can hang out with her and tell her all about how you’ve been working on yourself and you no longer have any attachment to her 

she will see you completely different and you won’t be afraid to hit on her and tease her playfully 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by DrewNows

[flowboy]

15 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

If you friendzone yourself she will lose respect for you and see you as a loser, a guy who is nice and pleasant, but still a useless loser.

Girls date assholes NOT because they like bad behaviour, but because assholes are honest and sincere with their interest and their decisions to date someone.

That's also why girls love good guys who are strong and radically honest. Because they both have good heart and strong willpower.

Yes, yes and yes. It's rare for a guy in your predicament to be so clear and free of victimhood about it. You didn't go redpill or incel, you're really taking responsibility and doing what you need to, to grow. I respect that a lot.

This tells me you will be a trigger-pulling boss in no time!

Edited June 2, 2019 by flowboy

[DrewNows]

2 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

Well, it's not black and white thinking, it's truth. Objective truth.

If you friendzone yourself she will lose respect for you and see you as a loser, a guy who is nice and pleasant, but still a useless loser.

Girls date assholes NOT because they like bad behaviour, but because assholes are honest and sincere with their interest and their decisions to date someone.

That's also why girls love good guys who are strong and radically honest. Because they both have good heart and strong willpower.

 

I've been a nice loser guy, so it's just normal that she doesn't respect me and sees me as a puppet.

Could it be she simply enjoys your company and caring attitude? Believe me I know players who have many  friends who are girls and they can both be friendly and flirty with any of them. Nothing has to be serious, you just have to learn not to be insecure and needy or afraid of rejection 

take it or leave it dude but I’m just saying. I was exactly like you and had cycle after cycle of “friendzoned” experiences and horrible suffering because I took it too seriously and didn’t work on myself 

 

[DrewNows]

4 minutes ago, flowboy said:

Yes, yes and yes. It's rare for a guy in your predicament to be so clear and free of victimhood about it. You didn't go redpill or incel, you're really taking responsibility and doing what you need to, to grow. I respect that a lot.

This tells me you will be a trigger-pulling boss in no time!

Dude he hasn’t done anything but admit to himself he’s fucking up. That’s step one. Next is to do the work and go get rejected “properly” 

[flowboy]

And don't worry about hurting her. If she's your friend, she'll be glad you told her the truth.

You'll both feel very different afterwards, you may not even want to pull away to avoid the pain anymore!

Honest sharing is powerful.

[Shin]

No.

Women don't see the nice guys as loser, unless those guys are really nasty and sneaky with them (which they will notice).

They see you as genuine friend and really care, but yeah they are not attracted.
t's not because they are not attracted that suddenly you become a loser and useless though.

Some girls thinks like that, but that's definitely not the majority.

[DrewNows]

@flowboy dude you’re telling him to end his fake friendship simply by getting rejected by her because it’s going to make him feel better? ?

He’s simply not being honest with himself. 

Since when has an end to any long relationship ever caused a guy to go work on himself and change his ways immediately? Never. 

[billiesimon]

20 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

Could it be she simply enjoys your company and caring attitude? Believe me I know players who have many  friends who are girls and they can both be friendly and flirty with any of them.

I know there are guys like that. 

But they are way ahead of my current phase.

I need to first learn how to be honest and direct, only then I will learn how to keep female friends and flirt with them.

RIght now I am emotionally scarred and insecure. I will be able to do that only when I'm completely changed. Now I need to let her go.

[flowboy]

@DrewNows Since you insist, let me break it down for you:

3 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

dude you’re telling him to end his fake friendship

I'm advising to open up the possibility for a real relationship (friend or otherwise) by being honest. You really can't sweep these things under the rug and still call it an honest friendship.

 

7 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

by getting rejected by her because it’s going to make him feel better? ?

You seem to be confused. Wanting to feel better is what has kept him from growth, until now. He is making a choice to stop being afraid of feeling bad, as the price for authenticity.

 

8 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

Since when has an end to any long relationship ever caused a guy to go work on himself and change his ways immediately?

You must be joking. All breakups lead eventually to the most dramatic personal growth! For guys in particular.

[billiesimon]

9 minutes ago, Shin said:

No.

Women don't see the nice guys as loser, unless those guys are really nasty and sneaky with them (which they will notice).

They see you as genuine friend and really care, but yeah they are not attracted.
t's not because they are not attracted that suddenly you become a loser and useless though.

Some girls thinks like that, but that's definitely not the majority.

Don't mistake me for a redpill or an incel, since I also believe that nice guys with strong character are deeply attractive for women.

But I've seen in my experience that girls only respect attractive guys (badboys and nice guys, as long as attractive).

They tend to see the unattractive man as useless and purposeless, if not for emotional support on occasion.

When she is attracted she will respect and care for you, when you are not she will not care about you, it's just how nature works, it's not women's fault. Women are actually most of the time nice people, but they just tend to focus on the attractive men.

[flowboy]

2 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

When she is attracted she will respect and care for you, when you are not she will not care about you, it's just how nature works, it's not women's fault. Women are actually most of the time nice people, but they just tend to focus on the attractive men.

This matches my experience, yes. And like you I don't hold it against them.

I hope you will post the results of your decision here! That will really enrich this conversation for everyone. Opinions are nice. Experience is king.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, billiesimon said:

@Emerald could you elaborate on this?

Would you want to keep a man you really really like as a friend even though he rejected you and dates other women? 

Yes. If I like him enough to want to be with him, chances are I'm already friends with him. So, I will not stop being friends with a guy just because he doesn't like me back. If I do that, then that makes me a really bad friend and means that I never really cared about him to begin with. 

Also, as a woman, I know from personal experience that it hurts to be fuck-zoned. A guy pretends that he wants to be friends with you, but he just wants to have sex with or date you. Then, when you tell him that you don't see him that way he says he felt like he wasted his time or something like that. It feels very objectifying. 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Emerald

[DrewNows]

 

26 minutes ago, flowboy said:

@DrewNows Since you insist, let me break it down for you:

I'm advising to open up the possibility for a real relationship (friend or otherwise) by being honest. You really can't sweep these things under the rug and still call it an honest friendship.

hes already admitted she would most likely reject him. Doing this will not help his confidence, in fact, it will come off as highly feminine 

You seem to be confused. Wanting to feel better is what has kept him from growth, until now. He is making a choice to stop being afraid of feeling bad, as the price for authenticity.

no actually if hes been friend zoned before, hes simply creating his own suffering and isnt aware of it. He has learned his behavior from his parents during childhood most likely and this keeps him from being able to be himself 

You must be joking. All breakups lead eventually to the most dramatic personal growth! For guys in particular.

this has been your past experience and i know you show good intentions but actual growth comes in reflection of one's own behaviors and figuring out what works, so while pain/suffering is inevitable to an extent, it doesn't create personal growth in itself without being able to properly reflect

 

29 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

I know there are guys like that. 

But they are way ahead of my current phase.

I need to first learn how to be honest and direct, only then I will learn how to keep female friends and flirt with them.

RIght now I am emotionally scarred and insecure. I will be able to do that only when I'm completely changed. Now I need to let her go.

@billiesimonThis is the real you hiding under your conditioning/fear but you've yet to understand how youre getting in your own way. This has to be figured out in the process of interacting with women. 

if you want to be honest with your friend simply tell her you cant see her for a while because you don't respect yourself and you need to work on that. You don't gotta spill your guts out and make your friendship awkward or end it. Simply commit to giving yourself the love to grow and learn through dating/interaction 

 

Edited June 2, 2019 by DrewNows

[flowboy]

@DrewNows  At least we both have billiesimon's best interest at heart. Let's see what he decides to do and what we can learn from that.