I don’t understand Pick-up culture and find it disingenuous

[Knock]

Fundamentally, I see pick-up culture as a selfish game used to sort out your own neurotic problems (low self-esteem, social anxiety, etc) and that undermines real human connection.

I tried to understand the PUA culture by looking at some forums and videos online, and I was disgusted at what I saw. I find a lot of the material is quite dehumanising/patronising about girls, objectifying them and making them seem more primalistic then they really are.

 I don’t know the right words to describe it, but they view women as ‘just a bunch of numbers’ and that you need to maximise your numbers to ‘win the prize’, like pawns in a game. Do they considered that perhaps some women don’t want to be approached? Or that women can see through your game, but for forced to play in it? Like an unsolicited disruption in a conversation.

It’s like they tried to use this idea of sales calls and quotas from business and success philosophy and apply it to social relationships. These are humans, they have souls, they are not objects to be used for your own game.

My girlfriend was telling me about her experiences going out clubbing to dance, which is all about letting loose and away from the demands of the world. But, it seems like dancing has been hijacked by PUA culture (or maybe it’s always been there). She can’t go out and dance without getting approached by half a dozen guys or so, and no, she isn’t dressing slutty or giving any indications. She was telling me how there were times that she was in a trance-like state just melting into the music, only to be purposely bumped into, approached or disrupted by some guy wanting her attention.

I am not here to criticise, despite how I write, but to understand. Obviously, I am not seeing the full picture here and have some strong biases and beliefs. Please enlighten me on this topic.

[Shadowraix]

How many conversations have you had where you try to say certain words in a certain way to get a certain outcome. You'd be surprised how manipulate humans are and PUA culture really just highlights this. 

But you are right. Men want women so they proceed to treat it like a puzzle. And it really is a statistics game. Leo used to do it. 

I think it's a phase just some men need to go through as annoying it is for many of the women. There was a video someone posted here of a guy who took a far more respectful approach to it. Don't remember who though. 

[SFRL]

@Knock first you take your Viking ship on a raiding party. Then you come by this little innocent Fisherman's village and you said the place. Burn it to the ground. You take a girl from there on your ship and you bring it back to your village. Then you take her to your hut and chain her to the dinner table. The chain should be like 10 feet long so she can move around scrubbing the floor and roasting the meat. 

Then after a while you are like "she is actually kind of cute". Then you release the chain if she promises not to run away. 

Then if she doesn't run away you start buying her some nice dresses and things. 

Then you make some baby's with her and if she bears you a son you make her your queen. 

From there you can start conquering the world together. 

 

Thing is a guy first needs to get the girl before you can build a relationship with her. Cant be putting the cart in front of the horse. 

Edited May 31, 2019 by SFRL

[SFRL]

3 hours ago, Knock said:

My girlfriend was telling me about her experiences going out clubbing to dance, which is all about letting loose and away from the demands of the world. But, it seems like dancing has been hijacked by PUA culture (or maybe it’s always been there). She can’t go out and dance without getting approached by half a dozen guys or so, and no, she isn’t dressing slutty or giving any indications. She was telling me how there were times that she was in a trance-like state just melting into the music, only to be purposely bumped into, approached or disrupted by some guy wanting her attention.

Guys hit on girls in clubs, what else is new? I don't think that's a recent thing. That stuff has been going on in our grandparents age. When they went to 'the dance'. 

You can either tell her to stop going, or you can start going with her, or she can decide to stop going herself if it's troubling you/her. 

It's a club what you expect? 

Maybe she has outgrown the club scene. Then it's up to her to shift gears and make adjustments. Find a new activity. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by SFRL

[Knock]

I would like to expect human decency and mutual respect, not selfish games that unwillingly use others as pawns. Although I appreciate that it has been tradition, are we not at a stage of progression where we can start making positive change? This applies to areas outside the club too, some people play this selfish game at the beach, at the park, even to those minding their own business walking down the street.

It baffles me how such behaviour is encouraged within not only the pick-up community, but personal development communities too. 

Perhaps an alternative would be teaching men that they don't need to pick up girls for their self-esteem. And when they do look to start dating, to do so in a mutually respectable way. Such a way of teaching would promote quality connection over quantity, authenticity over strategies, observing the subtle indicators of attraction rather than unsolicited approaching.

Occasionally this may be mentioned in such communities, but by and large it is pushed under the rug for the more 'game tactics'.

[SFRL]

22 minutes ago, Knock said:

I would like to expect human decency and mutual respect, not selfish games that unwillingly use others as pawns. Although I appreciate that it has been tradition, are we not at a stage of progression where we can start making positive change? This applies to areas outside the club too, some people play this selfish game at the beach, at the park, even to those minding their own business walking down the street.

It baffles me how such behaviour is encouraged within not only the pick-up community, but personal development communities too. 

Perhaps an alternative would be teaching men that they don't need to pick up girls for their self-esteem. And when they do look to start dating, to do so in a mutually respectable way. Such a way of teaching would promote quality connection over quantity, authenticity over strategies, observing the subtle indicators of attraction rather than unsolicited approaching.

Occasionally this may be mentioned in such communities, but by and large it is pushed under the rug for the more 'game tactics'.

Well you can teach all men all that but then you solved only 50% of 'the problem'. 

?

 

Same thing if the girl is in the club just dancing and Beyonce goes "All the single ladies, all the single ladies". Fucking confusing....

Edited June 1, 2019 by SFRL

[SFRL]

Now I am thinking, in Saudi Arabia they don't have those issues you are describing. They might have some expat jobs there for you. 

[Display_Name]

My post from another thread. I hope it answers your question. 

What people here fail to see is that pickup IS spirituality.

 

It reveals fears to conquor and transcend. It integrates spiral dynamics Red and Orange. It fulfills the Maslow level of Sex and Social Life to allow for actual authentic spiritual seeking. It raises autonomy and independence. It strengthens your spirit. I could go on and on. 

 

 

 

I'm the type of guy to hit the club on a Saturday to "pick up chicks" (really it's to grow and develop myself through actual action), then snort 5MeO the following Sunday, have myself dissolve and realise God. Then I'll go out and game some more the next day, then I'll meditate and do yoga on Tuesday. 

 

And why not? It's the same thing. Development. I'm just covering more bases then most people here. 

 

Don't be that weakminded, beta, fear riddled new ager listening to Matt Khan all day. All about love but completely unable to take any kind of action in the world. Needs and desires unfulfilled. 

 

Move through all the spiral stages. Don't skip red and orange. Become strong, autonomous, and empowered. Empower yourself to fulfill the human sex need. Be skilled at the social domain. 

 

This is so obvious to me yet people will so ignorantly call pickup manipulative, neurotic and selfish. Or worse "just be yourself". PSA: "yourself" is also just a collection of conditioned, manipulative behaviours. Fuck sake, is it more selfish than sitting on your cushion meditating? No, of course not. PSA2 EVERYTHING YOU DO WHILE NOT 100% GOD REALIZED IS SELFISH. As it should be. 

 

Develop yourself in all domains. Cover your bases. Empower yourself. It's that simple. 

 

/rant

[Display_Name]

The only one being disingenuous here is you, because you equate all creepy guys in the club grinding onto girls from the back with "pickup culture". I personally guarantee you all the guys doing that have no game and are just needy and drunk. Something pickup remedies.

You don't differentiate between learning to be more interesting, masculine, fun, authentic, sexual, relaxed, dominant, uninhibited (actual game) and "dehumanising and patronising forums". 

You probably grew up with atleast decent social skills and and soci and sexual experiences that lead to you getting a girlfriend without pickup. Great, thousands of others in this day and age don't and must learn it. Who's selfish for judging them for it? 

And perhaps others just have their own vision and goals in life. Who's selfish for judging them for it? Get off your high horse. 

I get a little heated on this, I'm very passionate about it. What I'm trying to say is, with love, you lack perspective.

❤️

Edited June 1, 2019 by Display_Name

[Gili Trawangan]

With pick-up things are not black and white. There are very positive aspects to it, and they have been mentioned in the previous posts. I agree with much of what was said.

I also think that there is a dark side to pick-up that you can fall into if you don't work on yourself, develop and grow.

It is a man's job to initiate a relationship with a woman, it is what is expected. One can learn how to be better at that.

[Knock]

@Display_Name Thank you for your insight.
It is true I lack perspective, as it is relative to me, I have not been involved in game or pickup. I am here to learn, and from what I have heard from my girlfriend and my findings on the internet has been quite worrisome about the whole culture. I do appreciate though that the internet, especially forums and youtube videos, is not the same thing as real life.

You are also correct, I have taken for granted my social and dating skills. Sometimes we forget that not everyone has had experience in these areas when growing up and that there is a lot of people out there that will cross social faus pas as they learn. Although I don't agree with their methods, a understanding person would have compassion for them, instead of labelling them selfish inconsiderate jerks. 

That is not to say that their actions and methods are right and to be encouraged. I still do think that a lot of what gets talked about on the internet about pickup is not desirable for both genders, which can have a tangible negative effect on impressionable novices to the scene. 

Obviously anything I think or say about real life pick-up is pure speculation.

[Key Elements]

@Knock I totally understand what you're saying. Check out these clips:

Guess what? They all mean the same thing! They all mean detachment. Yes, it's profound and true. I hope it helps. Check out Leo's PUA clip too.

[anthony_sh1]

2 hours ago, Display_Name said:

The only one being disingenuous here is you, because you equate all creepy guys in the club grinding onto girls from the back with "pickup culture". I personally guarantee you all the guys doing that have no game and are just needy and drunk. Something pickup remedies.

You don't differentiate between learning to be more interesting, masculine, fun, authentic, sexual, relaxed, dominant, uninhibited (actual game) and "dehumanising and patronising forums". 

You probably grew up with atleast decent social skills and and soci and sexual experiences that lead to you getting a girlfriend without pickup. Great, thousands of others in this day and age don't and must learn it. Who's selfish for judging them for it? 

And perhaps others just have their own vision and goals in life. Who's selfish for judging them for it? Get off your high horse. 

I get a little heated on this, I'm very passionate about it. What I'm trying to say is, with love, you lack perspective.

❤️

I really think that pickup is manipulative, all of what you do is doing something (or not doing) to get something of the girl without really caring about her, of her agenda, you don't see it like a fucking human being, you don't just be fun, or authentic or unhibited, etc. all about what you care is her pussy. You are going to use all the tricks and strategies you have to get her. Now, I'm not saying that all of the guys that are in game are manipulative and deceitful, just see for yourself.

The thing is, that you can interact with women in a more responsible way, you can learn how to be more unhibited, decisive, confident, learn how to convey your personality, and all of those things, which is fucking great, and be more human, not just seeing women as numbers, or a pit to put your semen, or as a trophies to tell your your friends who you slept with. Basically, learn that will remove all of your behaviours that prevent you from connecting with women, so learning how to convey your personality, becoming more authentic and unhibited NATURALLY leads to a relationship or sex, there are women that naturally are attracted to you, this is how human beings are like. So most of the problems that guys have with women, is because they are too scared for lack of experience, they don't know how to convey their personality, they are too timid, they can get rid of all of this shit that is getting on their own way and be attractive to women without being deceitful, learn tricks, or strategies to get her.

Edited June 1, 2019 by anthony_sh1
,

[Shin]

We're in stage orange guys,

Being authentic and caring is not on the table

WE HAVE TO FUCK EVERYONE IN THE ASS

Edited June 1, 2019 by Shin

[Arcangelo]

12 hours ago, Knock said:

I see pick-up culture as a cool game used to sort out your own problems (low self-esteem, social anxiety, etc) and that develops real human connection.

See? i just fixed your post.

12 hours ago, Knock said:

Do they considered that perhaps some women don’t want to be approached?

No we DGAF about it. What we consider is: the more approaches i make the less i will care about being rejected. The more approaches i make the more chances i have to fulfill my goal.

12 hours ago, Knock said:

going out clubbing to dance, which is all about picking up and getting picked up

See? i just fixed your post (again).

9 hours ago, Knock said:

some people play this selfish game at the beach, at the park, even to those minding their own business walking down the street.

Yes, Day Game. My favorite. It is the most difficult one, because at a club girls are expecting to be picked up + alcohol is in everybody's system which makes it ''much easier''.

 

9 hours ago, Knock said:

observing the subtle indicators of attraction rather than unsolicited approaching.

True. You have better odds when you detect choosing signals.

4 hours ago, Gili Trawangan said:

It is a man's job to initiate a relationship with a woman, it is what is expected. One can learn how to be better at that.

There you go.

 

3 hours ago, anthony_sh1 said:

I really think that pickup is manipulative, all of what you do is doing something (or not doing) to get something of the girl without really caring about her, of her agenda,

100% True.

 

3 hours ago, anthony_sh1 said:

you don't see it like a fucking human being

I do see them like  human beings. If i didn't i wouldn't be attracted to them.

3 hours ago, anthony_sh1 said:

all about what you care is her pussy.

True.

 

3 hours ago, anthony_sh1 said:

most of the problems that guys have with women, is because they are too scared for lack of experience, they don't know how to convey their personality, they are too timid, they can get rid of all of this shit that is getting on their own way and be attractive to women

Exactly, that's what Pick up is for, to solve those problems or at least address them.

3 hours ago, anthony_sh1 said:

without being deceitful, learn tricks, or strategies to get her.

Girls are deceitful, have a bag of tricks and strategies of their own too. No one is a saint you know...

 

2 hours ago, Shin said:

We're in stage orange guys,

Being authentic and caring is not on the table

WE HAVE TO FUCK EVERYONE IN THE ASS

I agree.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Arcangelo
them

[Shadowraix]

@Display_Name Do more 5-meo lol

You've got nothing to defend. 

[Shin]

16 minutes ago, Arcangelo said:

See? i just fixed your post.

No we DGAF about it. What we consider is: the more approaches i make the less i will care about being rejected. The more approaches i make the more chances i have to fulfill my goal.

See? i just fixed your post (again).

Yes, Day Game. My favorite. It is the most difficult one, because at a club girls are expecting to be picked up + alcohol is in everybody's system which makes it ''much easier''.

 

True. You have better odds when you detect choosing signals.

There you go.

 

100% True.

 

I do see them like  human beings. If i didn't i wouldn't be attracted to them.

True.

 

Exactly, that's what Pick up is for, to solve those problems or at least address them.

Girls are deceitful, have a bag of tricks and strategies of their own too. No one is a saint you know...

 

I agree.

 

I was kidding.

If you have this kind of mentality, I don't see how you will be able to find a nice, genuine, loving and caring girlfriend.
I mean of course you will, but will you be able to open up emotionally, being honest and genuinely happy just being around her ?
Will you be able to lover her, let her fully love you ?

I don't think so.

[SFRL]

3 hours ago, Shin said:

 

I was kidding.

If you have this kind of mentality, I don't see how you will be able to find a nice, genuine, loving and caring girlfriend.
I mean of course you will, but will you be able to open up emotionally, being honest and genuinely happy just being around her ?
Will you be able to lover her, let her fully love you ?

I don't think so.

That's complete bullshit. What's more likely is that at some point he will meet a girl that he really likes and then he will adjust his behaviour accordingly. 

There are different phases to dating and relationships, marriage etc. 

The end game for most PUA guys is to get that one girlfriend they really like.

Edited June 1, 2019 by SFRL

[SFRL]

Girls they don't even like it when the guy can't pull the trigger. 

Like when some guy is trying to impress the girl with his analysis of peace in the Middle East. The girl is just sitting there wondering if he is actually planning on launching his cruise missile. 

If Mr. President doesn't have access to the launch codes then he isn't really Mr. President is he? Then how is he going to protect her from the mean mean world? 

Getting the girl and the way you do get the girl actually shows her a lot about how you will assert yourself into the world. 

 

[Key Elements]

@Knock This is probably one of my favorite clips:

If you look closely, it relates to the other clips that I posted. What mainstream society don't understand is that whatever you do in a relationship, it will always end up in the same place. What does that mean? If you're in a long term relationship, and it lasts a lifetime, what happens is, it will end up just like the relationship that you're having with your mom, dad, or siblings (except, it's intimate. That's the only main difference). If you add anything else to it, for example, if you're needy in any way, it will just add stress to the relationship. It's really that simple. But, mainstream makes it complicated--too complicated.