Can thoughts be signs?

[chudders]

(First time posting in the forum, hope this topic is allowed(?))

I've been dealing with neurotic and repetitive thoughts based on trauma and built up suppression for many years and finally after having started self actualization was I able to realize that, but what often happens is I get a repetitive thought related to the trauma but my mind will try to tell me the recurring thought is a sign that what I'm worrying about is going to come true. After doing more work I realize thoughts are projections and symbols, not what they project. And I think ego has a big role to play in this worry. Spent a majority of the day thinking of ways ego could have created this superstition associated with the repetitive thought and I came to the conclusion it could be the ego saying its a sign because if its *not* a sign then accepting responsibility for having such a grim thought repeating in my head is dangerous and unacceptable to my self agenda. That makes the most sense but part of me still feels worried if the neurotic thought is a sign in disguise trying to warn me, even though its been an ongoing thought for almost a decade. So my question is, can thoughts be signs or is this all a neurotic illusion?

[B_Naz]

I see thoughts as the environment in your mind. It's the clouds, the oxygen, the nitrogen, the life in your mind. If it's damaged like you experiencing trauma, then it is most likely a sign that something is wrong.

If you constantly think negative, you will become negative. In the same nature here if you keep worrying and having repetitive thoughts on the trauma, you will become the trauma and it will control you

So yeah, I think it's a sign, and with the question about being an illusion is a much deeper topic that won't really help you with the trauma. What will help you is facing the trauma head on and letting the feelings out. Think of it as caring for the environment that is your mind

Deal with the trauma or go to therapy if you can't 

[Hellspeed]

Everything you focus on can be a sign.

[Truth Addict]

@chudders

I believe you started meditating.

In my experience, after 3 hours of walking meditation in nature, I reach the point of not caring about anything anymore, I even laugh at myself for caring so much earlier. Perhaps you want to give it a try.

That's one way.

The other way is holotropic breathing:

But be careful with the latter. It can be dangerous.

[chudders]

@B_Naz  by saying its a sign do you think its a sign something is wrong mentally that I need to sort out, causing the stress in the first place, or are you saying that its a sign that the thought is going to come true? 

[Leo Gura]

@chudders Thoughts which are fear-based have a tendency to be self-fulfilling. What you worry about tends to become true simply because you obsess about it so much.

It's hard to improve your life when you're constantly in fear.

The solution is to change your thoughts to love-based thoughts and shift your state to a more positive, optimistic, empowered one.

Research Law Of Attraction.

You want to create a positive, exciting vision for your future. Stop focusing on what you don't want and start focusing on what you want to create.

Negative stuff can always happen, but constantly worrying about it is not a solution.

[Forestluv]

As a neutral example of repetitive thought patterns and the Law of Attraction:

Imagine someone is pursuing their dream to write a book. The writer has repetitive negative thoughts that he is unworthy as a writer, he fears that other people will see his deficiencies, is defensive to feedback from others and worries that he is investing too much time into something he will likely fail at. He worries that no one will buy his book and how embarrassed he will be to face his family and friends. . .  It is highly likely that due to this orientation, his book writing journey is not going to turn out well.

Imagine another person is highly excited to write her first book. Her recurring thoughts are about how passionate she is about her topic and how much her book will help others. She is open to feedback because she sees editors as experts that can help her develop writing skills and produce a better product. It is much more likely that her book writing journey will turn out better than the guy above - even if they started with the same skill set and resources, because their mindsets will attract different realities to unfold.

[chudders]

@Leo Gura Becoming true  as in manifesting or worrying so much that it feels true? Its a repetitive thought that since I was little having been around hospitals a lot and seeing people sick from it or die from it made me feel really terrified of cancer, even just the word, although the word is not a disease itself, so then my mind goes to a 'worst case scenario thought' saying that since I am so scared of it it means its a sign I'm going to get said disease and that its disguising itself as fear, but I don't know if thats true or just me thinking of the worst scenario because of seeing people die. Its something that I've been suppressing for so long and I'm not sure what to do now that I'm facing it.

[Leo Gura]

@chudders What I said was: if you constantly worry about getting cancer, that can actually create cancer in you.

The mind is a very powerful thing. When it's misused it can create all sorts of problems, even physiological ones.

Start a daily meditation habit which will teach you to let go of your thoughts and tame your monkey mind.

Of course is you are doing something in your life which can cause cancer, like smoking or eating lots of processed meat, then you should also cut that out. But don't obsess over it.

[chudders]

@Leo Gura Ok that makes sense. I have been doing the 'do nothing' meditation and have been able to detach from the thoughts to a point where I am not typically worrying about getting cancer rather its a worry if the existence of the thoughts itself can cause it, not the worrying. Though, I don't think this is true because as you've stated in your videos and where i've read elsewhere, the mind will always have grim thoughts but their existence is not dangerous in itself if you do not attach to them.

[kieranperez]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The solution is to change your thoughts to love-based thoughts and shift your state to a more positive, optimistic, empowered one.

Do you feel that this really just suppresses and represses what one really feels? 

One of the things I really couldn't stand about affirmations was that I felt I was just lying to myself. 

For example: if I have irresponsible money habits and also have a poor money mindset, telling myself "I'm financially abundant" or some such thing (I don't remember what I would say) just felt like I was repressing the real issues. 

Or the whole "every day I'm getting better and better" and how that really is just one deluding themselves and denying and repressing the reality of one's "faulty" tendencies. 

Shunaymurti sums it pretty well for what it felt like in my own personal experience:

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by kieranperez

[Leo Gura]

@kieranperez Thinking empowering thoughts is far better than worrying.

Affirmations will of course not resolve the fundamental issue of duality or ego. But they can be a good intermediate technique. Not every technique has to be existential.

This work requires nuance.

[CreamCat]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Start a daily meditation habit which will teach you to let go of your thoughts and tame your monkey mind.

How tamed is your monkey mind now? Any success? How is your mind right now?

Edited May 31, 2019 by CreamCat

[ValiantSalvatore]

@kieranperez You can try a more rational approach with cbt. (I also tried shinzens approach or a loving kidness approach) 

I looked into Auto Hypnosis after this video just today and tried it, with a Youtube video of AutoHypnosis. 

 

I did not watch the whole Shunymurti video, yet considering Leo's answer this may be a way to advanced way. I like Shinzens approach to this since it is more modern. I'll watch more of Shinyamurti though. 

Edited May 31, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[kieranperez]

@Leo Gura sure. I guess it’s a compromise relative to what one is currently capable of. 

I guess I just get lost in the dynamic. Even when I read Ralston in Pursuing Consciousness on the fundamental dilemma of  having ideals. That by the very fact that you’re holding ideals is by definition being held because you’re in scarcity of it. I just remember that and really hitting home with me. 

Having said that, like you say, it’s pretty much impossible to drop bottom lines and really be free of something that you’re so deeply entrenched in. 

@ValiantSalvatore yeah Shunyamurti as far as his YouTube teachings is pretty solid. Not a fan of a lot of what he says but I love his integration between psychoanalysis and yoga. 

Shinzen Young’s practice really doesn’t work well with me that much. It’s honestly such a head trip getting around his algorithmic approach (which I totally can see how and why it’s AMAZING for a lot of people) that it just doesn’t resonate with me. Yoga for me I feel like is really my path as far as practice goes. It’s very feeling oriented which is perfect for someone like me. Practices that are too mind oriented keep me trapped in my head. I’ve never really learned effectively that way.

[ValiantSalvatore]

@kieranperez yeah shunya sounds solid I watched a couple of videos before, yet found him to be a bit con artist. 

Sounds great I never tried Yoga rigorously, yet will try it soon more seriously. 

Shinzen has a technique called feel good, hear good etc. 

https://www.shinzen.org/nurture-positive/

Not sure if this would be to mind oriented. Yet, this would adress the problems stated. I can't really maintain a 1h feel good pratice, I also want to do it rather via body and yoga. 

I mean I can, but it is more difficult. I pretty much have the same problems you write about in yohr posts. So, I can relate and empathise a lot lol. 

Yet, definitely try and do some more cbt, I did it before I bought the LP course through a book via Leo's booklist. It is quite mind boogling with a meditation pratice how recurrent patterns in thought change. 

[kieranperez]

@ValiantSalvatore I mention yoga because yoga has very direct practices for purifying and opening up the body. I know the technique you bring up. Those kinda of practices are extremely hard for me because conjuring up those feeling states are always intertwined with deep guilt, loss, shame, fear, anxiety, etc. I’m very shut off from that sort of stuff if I don’t address the trauma I have in my body. Meditation right now for me is almost impossible because of how much unconscious tension I have in my chest and throat to the point where breathing is difficult. Whenever I can get a breakthrough in energetic/psychic releases like through Shamanic breathing or a great breakthrough on psychedelics it’s a totally different story. 

Yoga is a much more holistic system I comparison to any traditional spiritual practice I’ve yet to come across. 

I get too easily lost with Shinzens practices in the different modalities. Which is hard because Im very conceptual and I like nuanced stuff but in practice it’s a distraction for me personally. 

[chudders]

so i've been thinking some more after going through the responses (thank you for them), so the initial fear of the repetitive/automatic thoughts of potentially being a sign of warning or circumstance does not make it a sign, but I need to let go of the underlying fear of whether it is or isn't, and to not attach to any thoughts in a neurotic way because they are harmless unless you obsess over them. Along with meditation and acceptance of uncertainty.

Edited May 31, 2019 by chudders

[chudders]

@CreamCat Its clearer than it use to be for sure. I've been able to accept uncertainty with a lot of things that were previously suppressed so thats improved, i just struggle when the thoughts become more superstitious and I have even less certainty than with regular thoughts, the monkey mind seems to try and make me believe the worst of the worst outcomes with little to no evidence, and unless I have absolute proof otherwise then it tempts me to believe the superstition.

[ValiantSalvatore]

@kieranperez

27 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

I mention yoga because yoga has very direct practices for purifying and opening up the body. I know the technique you bring up. Those kinda of practices are extremely hard for me because conjuring up those feeling states are always intertwined with deep guilt, loss, shame, fear, anxiety, etc. I’m very shut off from that sort of stuff if I don’t address the trauma I have in my body. Meditation right now for me is almost impossible because of how much unconscious tension I have in my chest and throat to the point where breathing is difficult. Whenever I can get a breakthrough in energetic/psychic releases like through Shamanic breathing or a great breakthrough on psychedelics it’s a totally different story. 

Yes, this is where shinzens approach shines imo, yet I did not approach any other system fully yet. I tried various techniques. Besides Kriya Yoga, yet I really want to get into Hatha-Yoga for the same reasons as you to open up the body and trauma repressed emotions in the body.

Well, I can give you Shinzens perspective it in is most likely the most modern version without much technical jargon in other systems. The feelings inside the body are repressed or not fully experienced emotions called sanskaras in Sanskrit. I mean if you go by language Sanskrit is the language which comes from the Hindu tradition.

The word samskara means according to what I can recall grooves or old grooves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samskara_(Indian_philosophy)

Which is old accumulated stuff, that has not been fully processed. 

I know exactly what you mean when you say that you have trauma in my body, I felt similar a couple of years ago and addressed this place in my solar plexus solely! With mindfulness and acceptance sometimes with a loving-kindness practice. At the beginning, it felt as if it were a hot stab with a knife and a deeply rooted scar, yes also a wounded child in a sense, since I felt my family caused this feeling by blaming a lot. I could dive deeper into it.

Yet, I had my first full release (chakra release/cleanse) last retreat over a weekend and I can understand why people go crazy. Yet, it felt so good in the original term it is coined it fully makes sense, that it is a cleansing process aka kriya. I saw my solar-plexus pumping in front of me while I cried.

Now, it feels more... inactive and like a stinky speck of oil. Yet it hurts still a lot.

Feel flow in Shinzens Paradigm most likely works with "prana" "kundalini" "energy" in the body, yet I can't draw distinctions since I do not know the definitions of prana and kundalini well.

Anyway, this is my perspective here shinzen talks about Kriyas. Also, yes I had a full authentic release and even talked with shinzen about it saying that. So, this stuff is definitely possible. But, quite intense more the nut case syndrome afterwards for me... not the experience per se. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9AHh9MvgyQ