Houston we have a Male problem

[arlin]

3 minutes ago, Shin said:

Maybe he was at your place and know exactly how it is, and exactly how to get out of it ...

was he?

[CreamCat]

11 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Many women have two choices in many environments, either be seen as an object and risk being harassed and abused or hide completely from people. 

The problem is that you only want the "hot" women. You objectify them before you even started trying to form a relationship. As long as you treat women like an object they will in turn treat you like something that doesn't have feelings. 

The fact that I only want hot women is not any more of a problem than the fact that you only want hot guys and reject every incel that approaches you.

You become an object because you perceive yourself as an object and project your perception onto men. Projection works in mysterious ways. A man who is attracted to a woman thinks that the woman is attracted to him because of projection.

If you stopped perceiving yourself as an object, you would discover that you don't feel that men objectify you.

Edited May 28, 2019 by CreamCat

[mandyjw]

@arlin It's a general "you". Our society places a lot more importance on women to be physically attractive. Personality is less important in a woman than it is in a man, society wants us to believe. 

This creates a shadow and an unmet desire to be seen for her personality or who she really is. So even though she puts on make up and attractive clothes she hates herself and when it attracts a man, she hates him too. 

[Shin]

3 minutes ago, arlin said:

was he?

How do you know he wasn't ?

[tsuki]

3 minutes ago, arlin said:

was he?

How could anybody ever be in your shoes, @arlin?

[arlin]

Just now, mandyjw said:

@arlin It's a general "you". Our society places a lot more importance on women to be physically attractive. Personality is less important in a woman than it is in a man, society wants us to believe. 

This creates a shadow and an unmet desire to be seen for her personality or who she really is. So even though she puts on make up and attractive clothes she hates herself and when it attracts a man, she hates him too. 

Stop this.

There are a lot of men who have feelings and are intelligent, kind creatures. And will be happy with an avarage looking girl. More than you think.

[Shin]

3 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@arlin It's a general "you". Our society places a lot more importance on women to be physically attractive. Personality is less important in a woman than it is in a man, society wants us to believe. 

This creates a shadow and an unmet desire to be seen for her personality or who she really is. So even though she puts on make up and attractive clothes she hates herself and when it attracts a man, she hates him too. 

No, it's because for a man to be attracted to a woman, the woman needs to be attractive physically.

This is how it is, and if we could be attracted to any women just for their personality, believe me we would.

Would be waaaaay easier to find a suitable partner.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Shin

[mandyjw]

@CreamCat

1 minute ago, CreamCat said:

The fact that I only want hot women is not a problem any more than you only want a hot guy.

You become an object because you perceive yourself as an object and project your perception onto men. Projection works in mysterious ways. A man who is attracted to a woman thinks that the woman is attracted to him because of projection.

If you stopped perceiving yourself as an object, you would discover that you don't feel that men don't objectify you.

I've spent the last few years of my life like that. Sweatpants, glasses, looking like a slob, hiding. It works, people treat me a lot more like a person. If I dress up and go somewhere around men they act stupid and look at me like I have three heads. If I dress like a slob, they aren't attracted to me but they will relate to me on a personal level much more easily. 

So when I care for my appearance I'm objectifying myself? That doesn't seem quite right. 

[arlin]

2 minutes ago, tsuki said:

How could anybody ever be in your shoes, @arlin?

To me seems that you have a problem with shin here.

You are contraddicting him.

 

[mandyjw]

2 minutes ago, Shin said:

No, it's because for a man to be attracted to a woman, the woman needs to be attractive physically.

This is how it is, and if we could be attracted to any women just for their personality, believe me we would.

Would be waaaaay easier to find a suitable partner.

All women are beautiful. I've never met one who wasn't.

I HAVE met women who don't believe that they are beautiful but I see through it. 

[CreamCat]

30 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

So when I care for my appearance I'm objectifying myself? That doesn't seem quite right.

You imagined a meaning for the word, object. You have creative power to imagine anything.

30 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I've spent the last few years of my life like that. Sweatpants, glasses, looking like a slob, hiding. It works, people treat me a lot more like a person. If I dress up and go somewhere around men they act stupid and look at me like I have three heads. If I dress like a slob, they aren't attracted to me but they will relate to me on a personal level much more easily.

So, when men are bedazzled by your sexy body, they treat you as an object? I think that's a matter of interpretation. Interpreting looking at you as if you had three heads as objectification feels like association of irrelevant words in my mind.

When a man is bedazzled by the cute paws of a cute cat, is the man objectifying the cat? When you are bedazzled by a cute cat, are you objectifying the cat? When you are bedazzled by a painting, are you objectifying the painting?

In my mind's dictionary, an object is something inhuman and something that lacks life.

Personally, when a woman is bedazzled by my body, I don't feel that I'm objectified. I take it as a sign that she is interested in my body. You probably also think "Is he interested in my body?" instead of "Is he objectifying my body?" when a man you are attracted to is looking at your body.

Objectification is probably not a problem when you do it to men.

I guess what you really want to say is that you are creeped or exhausted by too much sexual attention or by sexual attention from ugly or needy guys. So, I would interpret objectification as unwanted sexual attention.

According to Leo Gura, if you are truly enlightened, you would not mind running naked on streets. Personal development will eventually make unwanted sexual attention non-problem. There's nothing embarrassing about your body.

Edited May 28, 2019 by CreamCat

[arlin]

@Shin @mandyjw 

You are exagerating this. A guy can fall in love even if a woman is not exactly "Hot" or his "Physical type".

 

 

[tsuki]

1 minute ago, arlin said:

To me seems that you have a problem with shin here.

No, I'm just saying your thoughts out loud.
We all suffer because of reasons we chose for ourselves.

[Shin]

4 minutes ago, arlin said:

@Shin @mandyjw 

You are exagerating this. A guy can fall in love even if a woman is not exactly "Hot" or his "Physical type".

 

 

A man who is more feminine than masculine yes.

@mandyjw I said attractive, that is to relative to every man to a certain degree.

Don't resist it though, that's how it is

Edited May 28, 2019 by Shin

[arlin]

6 minutes ago, tsuki said:

No, I'm just saying your thoughts out loud.
We all suffer because of reasons we chose for ourselves.

The desire to have a beautiful relashionship with a girl is inherent in every human.

You would get hurt too if you put yourself in the shoes of a kind of incel that i was talking about. 

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is missing a deep meaningful part of his life, and he won't ever be able to attain it.

It seems to me like you are simplifying things because you just don't know what you are talking about.

I told you, even if i change my beliefs and my reality, this does not mean that i will ever be able to have a girl i like.

Yes, i can grow and go beyon that. I can not to suffer anymore cause of this. I can let go.

But still this does not mean that i will get hot girl.

Baby, the reality changes only for you. In the eyes of the girls around you, your face is still the same.

Edited May 28, 2019 by arlin

[mandyjw]

10 minutes ago, Shin said:

A man who is more feminine than masculine yes.

@mandyjw I said attractive, that is to relative to every man to a certain degree.

Don't resist it though, that's how it is

I still think it's much smarter to be the tomboy, be seen as an equal and a friend first, then weed out the shallow ones from the honest ones. When they see you as some sort of angel "above" them, you'll always be something that will or will not fulfill their desires, instead of having a real relationship of any type, platonic or romantic. 

I mean attraction has way more layers than just visual attraction. Why settle for just that? 

[Shin]

5 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I still think it's much smarter to be the tomboy, be seen as an equal and a friend first, then weed out the shallow ones from the honest ones. When they see you as some sort of angel "above" them, you'll always be something that will or will not fulfill their desires, instead of having a real relationship of any type, platonic or romantic. 

I mean attraction has way more layers than just visual attraction. Why settle for just that? 

Give examples, because I can't understand your abstract explanation (seriously).

Edited May 28, 2019 by Shin

[tsuki]

48 minutes ago, arlin said:

The desire to have a beautiful relashionship with a girl is inherent in every human.

You would get hurt too if you put yourself in the shoes of a kind of incel that i was talking about.

It seems to me like you are simplifying things because you just don't know what you are talking about.

I told you, even if i change my beliefs and my reality, this does not mean that i will ever be able to have a girl i like.

Yes, i can grow and go beyon that. I can not to suffer anymore cause of this. I can let go.

But still this does not mean that i will get hot girl.

Baby, the reality changes only for you. In the eyes of the girls around you, your face is still the same.

You're 20. None of this will matter in 10 years from now.
All you will remember is the fact that you suffered tremendously because of lack of perspective.

Loving yourself as an 'objectively ugly person' means that you simply do not do stupid shit that makes you suffer.
The list of stupid shit starts with calling yourself an 'objectively ugly person' and hanging around people that do.
That includes incel communities and hot girls that make your dick hard and your mind soft.
In the meantime, you cure the porn addiction that you likely developed and gain some perspective on what's truly important in your life.
When you get the two straight and start doing what matters to you, this is the proper place to start thinking about women.

48 minutes ago, arlin said:

It seems to me like you are simplifying things because you just don't know what you are talking about.

Truth is always simple.
Do you need to hear my sob story to take care of your suffering?

Edited May 28, 2019 by tsuki

[mandyjw]

13 minutes ago, Shin said:

Give examples, because I can't understand your abstract explanation (seriously).

Ugh. I feel like this forum is scaring me off again. 

[arlin]

20 minutes ago, tsuki said:

The list of stupid shit starts with calling yourself an 'objectively ugly person' and hanging around people that do.

Some girls didn't find me ugly. I don't hand out with people who call me ugly.

20 minutes ago, tsuki said:

That includes incel communities and hot girls that make your dick hard and your mind soft.

I was clearly exaggerating. I don't want a hot girl "per se"...

My first GF was not that beautiful, she was skinny. I loved her, she loved me. Yet, she refused to have sex with me because as she said "You are too ugly". She always pointed out that to me. When i see people talking about what attracts girls... it's just pathetic. You can't make love with somebody you are not physically attracted. Even if she loves you to death and would never want to leave you. Even if you are her perfect type speaking personallity wise, she adores your personality and your whole being. Even if she falls in love with your soul.

Can you immagine loving somebody and not being able to give her some meaningful beautiful experiences only because of something you can't control?

It's an important component, and yes, maybe 15 years from now i will have  a gf that doesn't care about passionate love since she has already done her experiences and now it's time to settle and make a family.

It's disgusting. There is no solution to that. You are fooling yourself.

It's alright, as i said, this is something i have to go through on my own, i don't want to explain the whole story to you,it would be too much...

But thank you for replying and for trying to understand.

Edited May 28, 2019 by arlin