Shamans

[Aldo]

Hello guys, i really want your opinions on shamanic traditions. At first shamans to me seamed like very traditional people using psychadelics just for the sake of tradition, the more i learn about them the more i think they have a deep understand of the psychadelics realms. Actualy some of them are very hardcore spiritual.

So i am reading Carlos Cascaneda books and he talks about Don Juan who is a shaman that trains him. Also i have learned about Maria Sabina. The respect these people have about these plants is huge. I know that respect is important when dealing with psychedelics but therse people take it too far in my opinion. Do you guys think that the rituals and theire beliefs about how the plants should be approached is that important?

[Leo Gura]

A lot of shamans have a low level of cognitive developmemt: pre-rational magical.

They can still be very wise, but it is not the highest levels of spiritual attainment and they will be dysfunctional in many ways. They don't have a global holisitic perspective.

[jbram2002]

I'll just say I have zero experience in psychedelics, but I might be able to address some of the last sentence. 

Rituals have as much power as you give them. I know people who read tarot cards and have a very elaborate ritual surrounding drawing the cards. They essentially meditate or even pray over the cards and will follow a specific pattern of shuffling and caring for the cards. If you ask them, they'll put a ton of value in the ritual, not because the ritual itself is valuable, but because it puts them into a certain state of mind where they feel more receptive to the lessons in the cards. I would assume the shamans feel similarly about their rituals, although if they have pre-rational magick like Leo suggests, they may put a lot of value into the specific ritual itself.

You'll find this strong belief in rituals in a lot of places. People will follow specific rituals in meditation. Religions follow pre-determined rituals in their services. If you try to take away those rituals, some people will be completely lost. If you create a ritual, it makes the action feel more purposeful, even if the ritual by itself does nothing. (My opinion though is that rituals have little purpose in an awakened person)

Edited May 27, 2019 by jbram2002

[AlwaysBeNice]

But you can say conditional domains of reality do work through magical/intentionally love based ways, love based, as soon as it's dogmatic, it's deluded.

I think you can say shamanistic work: healing, psychic opening work and experience,--  is a preliminary stage to enlightenment, and many shamans are not enlightened, are arrogant, attached and deluded to their spiritual ego and experiences/beliefs, not all of them and to different degrees,  and can still be advanced/helpful in some ways.

[Forestluv]

@Aldo I did an Ayahuasca retreat in Peru and the community was very into ceremony and ritual. They had a deep respect for the plants as spiritual medicine. Before one ceremony, the Shaman spoke to us all and then we each spoke about our intention. There were people that traveled from around the world there seeking Truth and there was a deep sense of respect, seriousness, openness, humility and surrender. This collective energy and consciousness greatly deepened the experience. 

Ime, psychedelics can also be used in less formal settings. One can have deeply profound experiences solo in their own home or at their local nature center. For me, respect, openness and humility are important in spiritual work. Psychedelics can also be used recreationally, yet that’s a different energetic vibe ime.

[Leo Gura]

There are valuable lessons to be learned from Spiral Dynamics stage Purple. That's where many indigenous shamans are at.

But also don't confuse stage Purple shamans with Turquoise sages. That would be a big mistake. Shamans are still missing a lot of development even though they can be quite high in spiritual development. But spiritual development is not the only important line of development.

Which is why we hear about a lot of shamans who abuse their followers.

A shaman will be ethnocentric and unable to see outside of his culture & traditions. A shaman will also have a rather superstitious worldview which does not accord with science or reason. This is okay, but also limited and partial.

[AlwaysBeNice]

Abuse is also such a tricky thing, especially in spirituality wherein people say that want to go beyond their ego, because one can challenge an ego from a place of love and it can be mistaken for hate or one can actually lash out in dishonesty. 

[Aldo]

@Leo Gura do you think that this can happen to yogis too, if they isolate themselves just practicing yoga?

[daniel695]

I have a superstitious world view. Are the superstitious world view in any way real or true or are they just relative truth? Mmmmm in the right circumstance I would be a shaman

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Aldo said:

@Leo Gura do you think that this can happen to yogis too, if they isolate themselves just practicing yoga?

Many yogis and monks in the East are no higher than stage Blue. Many are even Purple.

Such people are commonly ethnocentric, racist, homophobic, misogynist, dogmatic, nationalistic, superstitious, and anti-ecological. Even though they may be God-realized.

[Aldo]

@Leo Gura  yes i see how that can be true. I actualy found an interview of sadhguru talking about ayahuasca. He says that it has no spiritual benefits.

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/wisdom/article/ayahuasca-parasitic-purging

Do you think that he is not looking at psychadelics from the right perspective?

I say this because he has not tried ayahuasca as far as i know.

[Chi_]

15 minutes ago, Aldo said:

@Leo Gura  yes i see how that can be true. I actualy found an interview of sadhguru talking about ayahuasca. He says that it has no spiritual benefits.

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/wisdom/article/ayahuasca-parasitic-purging

Do you think that he is not looking at psychadelics from the right perspective?

I say this because he has not tried ayahuasca as far as i know.

Yeah many mystics and gurus seem to look down upon Psychedelics not being useful in the spiritual path.

I feel like it might be on of two reasons in Sadhguru's case. 

1) His perspective of Psychedelics could be influenced a lot by the general public opinion of them being just another 'drug'.

 2) Eventhough he knows they could be beneficial in the spiritual path, he doesn't want people to easily misinterpret what he says and start misusing psychedelics and maybe he doesn't want people to claim that he encourages the use of 'drugs', which could be harmful for his "image" he consciously maintains as a guru and also for his foundation

 

With that being said, I could be totally wrong on this but that's what I think becauce his teachings about everything else about life and spirituality seems to be just top-notch, except for this ?

Edited May 28, 2019 by Chi_

[Leo Gura]

45 minutes ago, Aldo said:

@Leo Gura  yes i see how that can be true. I actualy found an interview of sadhguru talking about ayahuasca.

Do you think that he is not looking at psychadelics from the right perspective?

Psychedelics are very misunderstood.

Do not trust anyone who has not done at least 30 trips.

And even then, you must do it yourself to truly understand their power.

Psychedelics are the #1 spiritual growth tool I have found. Nothing else comes close. No guru.

There is a good reason they are denounced. Because they rob everyone of power over you.

Even someone like Sadhguru can be closedminded on some things. Don't assume he is infallible.

[now is forever]

6 hours ago, jbram2002 said:

I'll just say I have zero experience in psychedelics, but I might be able to address some of the last sentence. 

Rituals have as much power as you give them. I know people who read tarot cards and have a very elaborate ritual surrounding drawing the cards. They essentially meditate or even pray over the cards and will follow a specific pattern of shuffling and caring for the cards. If you ask them, they'll put a ton of value in the ritual, not because the ritual itself is valuable, but because it puts them into a certain state of mind where they feel more receptive to the lessons in the cards. I would assume the shamans feel similarly about their rituals, although if they have pre-rational magick like Leo suggests, they may put a lot of value into the specific ritual itself.

You'll find this strong belief in rituals in a lot of places. People will follow specific rituals in meditation. Religions follow pre-determined rituals in their services. If you try to take away those rituals, some people will be completely lost. If you create a ritual, it makes the action feel more purposeful, even if the ritual by itself does nothing. (My opinion though is that rituals have little purpose in an awakened person)

you say it there, rituals are like food - you can find junk and you can find healthy. even awakened people will have rituals, it’s just that they won’t have so many inflated rituals. on a more basic level, even brushing your teath or putting on clothes in the morning are rituals. what kind of food you eat is a ritual. an awakened person will have simple healthy thought through rituals on a high vibrational level.

the question you need to ask is what does a ritual transport.

Edited May 28, 2019 by now is forever

[Vega]

Well I am thinking of actually doing the Shaman thing and try to do their trips and stuff, thing is... If I happen to be a beginner should I be afraid of messing something up? psychologically or something... ?

[impulse9]

Personally I haven't experienced any higher wisdom than that offered in the Castaneda books, and I've looked far and wide. I know this is a controversial opinion for some but there you have it. Even Leo, with all his wisdom and intelligence (and I love Leo, don't get me wrong) falls short when it comes to the depth of wisdom offered by Don Juan.

The problem, the way I see it, is basically this. Our culture has trained us to interpret the world through logic and reason, however there is a point at which logic loses all its power, and that's the point where shamanism (true shamanism, not the cartoon snake oil version most are familiar with) begins. The main takeaway is the concept of personal power. When you have enough personal power, a simple thing such as the scent of a flower can enlighten you and propel you into indescribable ecstasy or even a completely different world. When you don't have enough personal power, the highest wisdoms can be revealed to you and it won't make a damn bit of difference, you will continue to face the world unenlightened, uninspired and frustrated. The way we gain personal power is by "stopping the world". We create the world through thinking, and so we should strive to stop thinking, and this is how our personal power is allowed to grow.

I disagree with Leo when he says that this level of shamanism is simply some type of lower order, non-holistic wisdom that is only useful in the context of tribal cultures, I think this is a naive misinterpretation. Personally, I think this wisdom if of higher order than even that of Buddha, non-dualism and similar schools of thought. Even psychedelics, according to Don Juan, are simply stepping stones, their use lies in breaking the mold in people that would otherwise never in a thousand years be able to break through and experience reality outside of the mental constructs that comprise out mundane reality as we know it. Outside of this, psychedelics have no use and one should rely on their own power instead. The truth - the actual truth - about life is incomprehensible, inexpressible, unknowable, and infinitely deep. Shamans are those who can enter this realm of the inexpressible and the unknowable at will without the use of any substances or even discipline. They defy logic by rising above it, and they tell us that this logic, this rationality we hold so dear, is nothing but a tiny point in front of our eyes, blinding us so we don't see the infinite behind it.

Here's one of my favorite quotes from those books:

"The world is incomprehensible. We won’t ever understand it; we won’t ever unravel its secrets. Thus we must treat the world as it is: a sheer mystery."
―Carlos Castaneda, A Separate Reality

Are you able to let go and enjoy this mystery? Listen to your heart for the answer.

[TDLH]

I have encountered many Shamans that are unhinged, delusional, SD purple, blue, orange and even green etc….

I have encountered many modern-day Gurus, that are unhinged, delusional, SD purple blue, orange and green etc….

 

I have encountered very few modern-day Gurus that are “Grounded” and that are hovering in tier two SD!

I have encountered very few Shamans that are “Grounded” and that are hovering in tier two SD!

 

It all comes down to the definition of what is True consciousness and awakening?

What is Reality?

 

Spiral Dynamics, Science, Religion, Evolution, logic, critical thinking etc., are human perspectives, thoughts, ideas and beliefs. 

It doesn’t matter how many times you do psychedelics or any other form of Mind travel, you will always return to your human Form and Human Ego.  

You will always interpret your experiences through the lens of the Ego and Human Mind experience, through your collection of thoughts, ideas and beliefs.

We will never know what Absolute Consciousness is, what Absolute Reality is, what absolute Awakening is, due to our limited contracted physical Mind experience.

 

Just sharing a few thoughts, ideas and beliefs!