A few questions about psychedelics

[ColdFacts]

If we take local anesthetic and inject it in your hands and then put a cold object then a hot object in your hands they will feel the same to you, does it mean that the object is truly so, no it doesn't, in fact you're just feeling the anesthetic. If we give any other animal like for example chimps some of this enlightenment psychedelics, shouldn't they also in some way experience enlightenment or at least human awareness, they don't they just go crazy. Any substance you use won't change the nature of your senses it will just distort them, it won't give them new abilities to gather new information it will just make them process that information in a distorted way. Evolution at least to our knowledge has created humans with the best body to comprehend reality, and for me it makes no sense that some substance found freely in nature can beat all those millions of years of evolution just like that. It's awareness in that state recommended by nature that created science, and religion too and everything we know so far that has value. If you can't trust your hands with distorted information processing why should you trust your own brain with distorted information processing? So far any substance has be useful in stopping the information of our senses like in a surgery and so on, and i can see benefit in stopping information to the brain in that sense for the enlightenment process but the same will have to your awareness and critical thinking and so on not just those part that actual help us in the enlightenment process so it is no use. This is what stops me from using those things, because it seems that it is a waste of time if you try them more than 5 times at best. 

[OctagonOctopus]

How do you know that what your senses are picking up right now isn't already distorted? 

[ColdFacts]

7 minutes ago, OctagonOctopus said:

How do you know that what your senses are picking up right now isn't already distorted? 

Whatever they are right now it's the best evolution did so far in that aspect, and i highly doubt it missed the chance to add a simple substance to make it more efficient.

[Gili Trawangan]

@ColdFacts Evolution does what's best for humans' survival. Consider the possibility that survival has nothing to do with truth.

[OctagonOctopus]

@ColdFacts

Efficient would be relative to whatever the goal is. When you are on a psychedelic one gets to states that are more efficient at internal exploration, but these states are probably not as efficient at everyday human tasks. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by OctagonOctopus

[ColdFacts]

1 minute ago, Gili Trawangan said:

@ColdFacts Evolution does what's best for humans' survival. Consider the possibility that survival has nothing to do with truth.

Yes it does, if you're enlightened you rely less on other things, which means less risk, this just came out of my head right now.

[ColdFacts]

1 minute ago, OctagonOctopus said:

@ColdFacts

Efficient would be relative to whatever the goal is. When you are on a psychedelic one gets to states that are more efficient at internal exploration, but these states are probably not as efficient at everyday human tasks. 

As i said, it is helpful only in distorting information or numbing not adding new abilities, what you are experiencing is some of those senses are numbed some are not. So it might numb a part of you that the ego relies on ect, but also your critical thinking so in the end it evens things out in nothing beneficial just addiction nothing else.

[OctagonOctopus]

5 minutes ago, ColdFacts said:

As i said, it is helpful only in distorting information or numbing not adding new abilities, what you are experiencing is some of those senses are numbed some are not. So it might numb a part of you that the ego relies on ect, but also your critical thinking so in the end it evens things out in nothing beneficial just addiction nothing else.

One could agrue senses are a way we distort reality in order to interpret reality. So different distortions means different perspectives, and you need multiple perpectives to more fully interpret the whole of a thing. 

[ColdFacts]

1 minute ago, OctagonOctopus said:

One could agrue senses are a way we distort reality in order to interpret reality. So different distortions means different perspectives, and you need multiple perpectives to more fully interpret the whole of a thing. 

Our senses serve for us to paint reality in a meaningful way for us, and those are the best thing nature has provided us so far, if we add anything else we are perceiving this substance through are already limited senses, reality is out of the picture just like the numb hands case i mentioned, first you'd have to get rid of the substance to experience reality. Our senses on their natural state already are limited to other aspects of reality but they are doing the best possible, that is the highest. If you add anything else you are assuming evolution who created consciousness missed adding that substance, which is wrong. 

[Jacobsrw]

@ColdFactsThis would be true if the senses and the human neurological/biological evolution did not become a self deceptive distortion itself. Unfortunately, if we observe human evolution it is now the very barrier that has been created into a limitation.

A non intoxicated state has now been classified by neuroscientists as a combination of hallucinations. In fact, a sober state may be more distorted then than a psychedelic one. As a psychedelic state attuned you to become more receptive of unconscious processes. More refined processes within you. Something to consider.

Just look at how ones sensory perceptions can be distorted by a belief, a thought, a value, morality. Non existent metaphysical constructs are sufficient in sending a human into a state of distortion without any substance. Really, we are unmeasurably distorted in times such as now. 

Psychedelics are just a temporary tool to dive deep into the distortions that have been self created. Distortions that would otherwise be left dormant. In other words, they amplify consciousness that other wise rests in the background.

This is coming from someone who has not yet done psychedelics but has extensively looked into them. I can say my perception on them has definitely changed. They are not purely the disruptive substance they are made out to be. I implore you to research them ?

Edited May 27, 2019 by Jacobsrw

[Jacobsrw]

@ColdFacts Watch this for example. May be insightful.

 

[ColdFacts]

1 minute ago, Jacobsrw said:

@ColdFactsThis would be true if the senses and the human neurological/biological evolution did not become a self deceptive distortion itself. Unfortunately, if we observe human evolution it is now the very barrier that has been created into a limitation.

A non intoxicated state has now been classified by neuroscientists as a combination of hallucinations. In fact, or sober state may be more distorted then than a psychedelic one. As a psychedelic state attuned you to become more receptive of unconscious processes. More refined processes within you. Something to consider.

Just look at how ones sensory perceptions can be distorted by a belief, a thought, a value, morality. Non existent metaphysical constructs are sufficient in sending a human into a state of distortion without any substance. Really, we are unmeasurably distorted in times such as now. 

Psychedelics are just a temporary tool to dive deep into the distortions that have been self created. Distortions that would otherwise be left dormant. In other words, they amplify consciousness that other wise rests in the background.

This is coming from someone who has not yet done psychedelics but has extensively looked into them. I can say my perception on them has definitely changed. They are not purely the disruptive substance they are made out to be. I implore you to research them ?

Then you can also agree that just one day(and that is too much) in any psychedelics would be life threatening to you, how is that good or better than your assumed intoxication in natural state? I'm am not saying it is perfect, i am saying it is better without them and worse on them.

[Aeris]

17 minutes ago, ColdFacts said:

Our senses serve for us to paint reality in a meaningful way for us, and those are the best thing nature has provided us so far, if we add anything else we are perceiving this substance through are already limited senses, reality is out of the picture just like the numb hands case i mentioned, first you'd have to get rid of the substance to experience reality. Our senses on their natural state already are limited to other aspects of reality but they are doing the best possible, that is the highest. If you add anything else you are assuming evolution who created consciousness missed adding that substance, which is wrong. 

No you don't get it. On this added molecular you get that you're litteraly the entire world. You're a dust of star.

You're not the human you believe you incarnate. 

There is 'no errors' in nature indeed That's why évolution bring us to mix with some others moleculars

 mind leaders are guided to share their body with a part of nature to discover nature. Where aswell' sleepers by will of nature will equaly stay asleep

[ColdFacts]

1 minute ago, Aeris said:

No you don't get it. On this added molecular you get that you're litteraly the entire world. You're a dust of star.

You're not the human you believe you incarnate. 

There is 'no errors' in nature indeed That's why évolution bring us to mix with some others moleculars

 mind leaders are guided to share their body with a part of nature to discover nature. Where aswell' sleepers by will of nature will equaly stay asleep

When you add that molecule, you can only perceive that molecule, because that very thing overrides your ability to see everything, it's like putting glasses on you, is now reality black? No substance can alter your senses, it can't add quality or new information, it just changes the way you already get that information nothing else. That high, or knowledge you get all depends on the substance without it you're nothing, because it gives you that perceptive and won't give it to you back unless you take it again, and that reality is only true on that substance. True enlightened people relied and build upon their senses in their best form, and build upon them conclusions tested and tested and arrived to true knowledge.

[Jacobsrw]

@ColdFacts you may be missing what I’m saying here. I’m not saying they are a substance for continual use. They are an optional tool to open door ways to deeper consciousness that would  otherwise be incomprehensible to the conscious mind. Important insight into existential understanding for instance.

Psychedelics have been given crude popularisations due to the bigotry of mass media, ethics and their irrational recreational use. They are a useful tool just like a supplement for the body. If used wisely can unlock avenues of unimaginable growth and recovery. Just look into scientific studies with PTSD, major depression patients. Results are quite opaque.

I am not merely say do them. I’m suggesting be open to them. They could help more people than they disrupt.

[ColdFacts]

Just now, Jacobsrw said:

@ColdFacts you may be missing what I’m saying here. I’m not saying they are a substance for continual use. They are an optional tool to open door ways to deeper consciousness that would  otherwise be incomprehensible to the conscious mind. Important insight into existential understanding for instance.

Psychedelics have been given crude popularisations due to the bigotry of mass media, ethics and their irrational recreational use. They are a useful tool just like a supplement for the body. If used wisely can unlock avenues of unimaginable growth and recovery. Just look into scientific studies with PTSD, major depression patients. Results are quite opaque.

I am not merely say do them. I’m suggesting be open to them. They could help more people than they disrupt.

I get your point and i already mentioned the only benefit known from substances like that, it is in reducing unwanted information. They do that towards enlightenment as well, but where they put you 2 steps ahead they take you also 5 steps wrong on the right, and you are actually 2 steps ahead right dues to this substance but what use is it, if it stays that way 1 if it is only on the substance, and 2 even if you take that back to reality you are 5 steps wrong on the right, you get me?

[Jacobsrw]

@ColdFactsalso consider that the minds propensity to damage neural cell tissues naturally. Through psychological adversity, mental disrupt and disorders without substance this is a state of effect beyond almost any psychedelic use. 

[Aeris]

7 minutes ago, ColdFacts said:

When you add that molecule, you can only perceive that molecule, because that very thing overrides your ability to see everything, it's like putting glasses on you, is now reality black? No substance can alter your senses, it can't add quality or new information, it just changes the way you already get that information nothing else. That high, or knowledge you get all depends on the substance without it you're nothing, because it gives you that perceptive and won't give it to you back unless you take it again, and that reality is only true on that substance. True enlightened people relied and build upon their senses in their best form, and build upon them conclusions tested and tested and arrived to true knowledge.

Psychédélics are différents in the way that they are the contrary of alcohol.

You take off the lie-glasses about yourself. 

It cannot be described It's a very self experience

Of course you can prob reach those states with heavy work

Edited May 27, 2019 by Aeris

[ColdFacts]

Just now, Jacobsrw said:

@ColdFactsalso consider that the minds propensity to damage neural cell tissues naturally. Through psychological adversity, mental disrupt and disorders without substance this is a state of effect beyond almost any psychedelic use. 

See my post above. 

[Jacobsrw]

@ColdFactsThat’s not how they work though. They open metaphysical doorways that are acting opportunities for you raise awareness in your physical reality. They have potential to provide  insight that then you can utilise in your “natural state”. Basically, their advantage is they can shed years of trauma and psychological torment from just one responsible experience with them. 

They are not a high you dispense of them have no take away. They have a high tested outcome in physical growth. I would say they can put you 5 steps ahead rather than the 2 you may get from traditional medicine.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Jacobsrw