should i stop watching actualized.org?

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Shin said:

Maybe those days, but a week or two ago there was someone who opened a thread in which she asked how do we post in here, and sais it was challenging.

Lots of harsh and brutal projections and advices from the very firsts posts, including Leo.

That's just one example.

And I'm saying this as a reminder as much for me than everybody else, I did'do that a lot too.

That's something we can improve on.

[Rilles]

Thats the problem with being in Gods asshole. We all have blindspots. Sometimes when we think were being nice were actually being shitty and vice versa. 

[Preetom]

5 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Thats the problem with being in Gods asshole. We all have blindspots. Sometimes when we think were being nice were actually being shitty and vice versa. 

The place is dark and cold and stinky ?

[Rilles]

3 minutes ago, Preetom said:

The place is dark and cold and stinky ?

Yeah the place is a dump. 

[mandyjw]

16 minutes ago, Preetom said:

The place is dark and cold and stinky ?

We just need to start a fire and bring in some magical forest animals and cleaning fairies to spruce it up a bit. 

 

[mandyjw]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Do not make such generalizations.

Fundamentally this work is not about avoiding suffering, it is about a desire for the deepest truth, wisdom, and love. Not because you lack or suffer but because you desire it.

Lack is a poor motivation source.

It's challenging to teach the law of attraction to people who have already decided it's bullshit and have been turned off by false positivity. There are so many personal development teachers who make people want to puke because of the way they embody phony positivity. That's one thing that you do really well as a teacher, you appeal to people who see through the bullshit of it. But there's still a challenge in making people feel authentically cared for, first you have to truly care for them but some people are so used to being insulted that they take still love as an insult. 

There's science behind the way we rewire our brain with positive or negative thinking but people still choose to reject it. You create with your thoughts. You get more of what you think about. If you think you are addicted to food, you will be. If you think you are depressed you will be. 

I guess that's why present moment awareness is such a good starting place for people. It takes the stories of addiction and depression and mental illness and dissolves them without having to use logic. You don't have to convince someone their story is false, you only convince them that the present moment is the only thing that is true. 

Even in teaching, the law of attraction is necessary. You can never focus on what someone lacks and also give them what they need. You have to focus on what they already have, the perfection that they already are. And that's the definition of love anyway, right? 

[Leo Gura]

Many people get into spirituality due to intense suffering. That is very common.

My point is though, that is not the only way to get into spirituality. That's not why I do spirituality for example. I do it to seek Truth, wisdom, and understanding. My point is, I want this path to be open to people who just want truth for truth's sake, not just because they seek to escape suffering.

The idea that one must be deeply dysfunctional to get into spirituality is not a good one to spread. Spirituality is for highly functional people (and also dysfunctional ones).

[Enlightenment]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Fundamentally this work is not about avoiding suffering, it is about a desire for the deepest truth, wisdom, and love. Not because you lack or suffer but because you desire it.

Would it be so bad if deep down we're all doing this to feel better and that all it is? I don't think so

[Rilles]

1 minute ago, Enlightenment said:

Would it be so bad if deep down we're all doing this to feel better and that all it is? I don't think so

Life is suffering. The cause of suffering is desire. Let of go desire and you will find peace. Buddhism is pretty much built on avoiding suffering. Not that sitting under a tree for 40 days doesnt make you suffer tremendously but the outcome you want is peace which is a form of desire. 

[mandyjw]

@Leo Gura We all suffer though. This work is about going from suffering to bliss, or it's about trying to find the truth and realizing that everything is a lie. Seek and you will find. For me it has been equally both. I desperately wanted truth when I was a Christian kid. Then I decided it was all a lie, that truth couldn't be found and I went into material things, which caused me to suffer enough that I went down a road that lead me here, to "truth."

The difference is the intention, the story they tell themselves about why they are doing it. In the end we don't really need a story, but to begin we need a why. I guess it's like the boat you don't need anymore once you've cross over. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by mandyjw

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

Would it be so bad if deep down we're all doing this to feel better and that all it is? I don't think so

The avoidance of suffering is a problematic source of motivation because avoidance of suffering rarely leads to Truth. It can, but 99% of the time it leads to various forms of devilry and delusion. Because there are so many ways to mollify the suffering with illusion. And the desire to escape suffering itself ends up creating the most suffering. What is it that wants to escape suffering? Mostly ego. And of course it doesn't really want Truth, it merely wants pleasure. And as soon as your suffering is mitigated, you stop caring about Truth. That's the problem with negative motivation. It produces yo-yo effects. The more your suffering is reduced the less you care about Truth. Which means you're unlikely to ever reach it. Whereas if your whole motivation was Truth, you'd reach it very quickly.

Wanting the Truth is the highest kind of motivation for this work. The highest masters didn't get that way to avoid suffering. They got that way because the loved and valued Truth so highly they were will willing to incur enormous suffering to reach it. But of course this kind of motivation is rare.

As the proverb goes: a fool will learn no other way than through suffering. Which means the wise aren't motivated that way.

[Elisabeth]

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Spirituality is for highly functional people (and also dysfunctional ones).

Would you say that traditional techniques (such as vipassana) were developed for highly functional people? (that's something I've been wondering about for a long time now)

Do you have any insight as to how people starting from less functional places (such as your usual anxiety and depressive disorders, having lived through trauma, etc., or just motivated by lack) should approach the field differently?

What I know is:

- we're more vulnerable to 'spiritual' marketing, a trap to be mindful of

- "get functional first" is not an option, since developping a spiritual connection may very much be a part of the answer

- "don't mind your 'illness', go for the Truth" is also not an option; we have limitations; healing and spiritual work have to go hand in hand

[mandyjw]

But LEO!!!

 We are all part fool and part wise. That's how compassion works. It's looking into the eyes of another, the eyes of yourself. 

I get what you mean though, inspiration is the way, love, passion, desire for truth is everything. Sometimes people need to heal their hearts before they can tap into that though. 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

We are all part fool and part wise.

Some of us are more fools than others

[mandyjw]

@Leo Gura You got me. 

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Elisabeth said:

Would you say that traditional techniques (such as vipassana) were developed for highly functional people? (that's something I've been wondering about for a long time now)

Well, most of the best meditation techniques were developed by the most advanced sages of mankind. They were exceptionally gifted and highly functional (for the most part).

But that doesn't mean that a dysfunctional person can't benefit from Vipasanna. That would be a misguided conclusion.

Quote

Do you have any insight as to how people starting from less functional places (such as your usual anxiety and depressive disorders, having lived through trauma, etc., or just motivated by lack) should approach the field differently?

Yeah, lots could be said about that. Books could be written about that, and have. There are many books written by people who went through long periods of recovery and healing before ultimately awakening.

I would definitely suggest doing more basic self-help work. Tackling advanced metaphysical topics for dysfunctional people wouldn't be too effective I imagine.

Going from dysfunctional to functional is actually a very good approach. Traditionally, dysfunctional people were not even allowed to get initiated into yoga, for example, because you need to have your shit together to do yoga properly. There are qualifications for serious spiritual seekers for good reason. Spirituality is not for slobs and rubes. Spirituality requires high maturity and innate wisdom. Otherwise it get corrupted into evil.

But this doesn't mean you can't have some kind of mild spiritual practice while you're doing basic self-help / healing. You can. Just don't expect it to take to the highest levels of insight.

Yes, developing a spiritual connection is a big part of the answer. But also developing that connection properly is not easy. It requires serious commitment and work. Which many dysfunctional people are unable to muster. But again, don't take this on as a limiting belief. No one is stopping you but yourself.

Perhaps the biggest obstacle for a dysfunctional person is that he/she will simply be unable to tolerate the stark brutality of the Truth which spirituality reveals. Which is why they are dysfunctional in the first place. Weak people cannot handle hearing the Truth. They have all sorts of twisted defense mechanisms to deny it all day long.

Developing a genuine desire for raw truth is essential to spiritual work.

[Shin]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's something we can improve on.

Thank you Leo.

[karkaore]

@Leo Gura

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The avoidance of suffering is a problematic source of motivation because avoidance of suffering rarely leads to Truth. It can, but 99% of the time it leads to various forms of devilry and delusion. Because there are so many ways to mollify the suffering with illusion. And the desire to escape suffering itself ends up creating the most suffering. What is it that wants to escape suffering? Mostly ego. And of course it doesn't really want Truth, it merely wants pleasure. And as soon as your suffering is mitigated, you stop caring about Truth. That's the problem with negative motivation. It produces yo-yo effects. The more your suffering is reduced the less you care about Truth. Which means you're unlikely to ever reach it. Whereas if your whole motivation was Truth, you'd reach it very quickly.

 

can resonate with that very much. feel like a huge yo-yo, leap forwards, same if not the bigger one backwards

Edited May 24, 2019 by karkaore

[Aeris]

2 hours ago, Shin said:

And yet that's where a lot of people comes from and we are very brutal to them,

Sometimes even in their very first posts.

Is it really helping or making things worse for them ?

How could 'someone' know.

Is it more evil than staying asleep' and following the brutal sect they are born in ?

 

[Elisabeth]

Quote

Well, most of the best meditation techniques were developed by the most advanced sages of mankind. They were exceptionally gifted and highly functional (for the most part).

But that doesn't mean that a dysfunctional person can't benefit from Vipasanna. That would be a misguided conclusion.

Yeah, lots could be said about that. Books could be written about that, and have. There are many books written by people who went through long periods of recovery and healing before ultimately awakening.

I would definitely suggest doing more basic self-help work. Tackling advanced metaphysical topics for dysfunctional people wouldn't be too effective I imagine.

Going from dysfunctional to functional is actually a very good approach. Traditionally, dysfunctional people were not even allowed to get initiated into yoga, for example, because you need to have your shit together to do yoga properly. There are qualifications for serious spiritual seekers for good reason. Spirituality is not for slobs and rubes. Spirituality requires high maturity and innate wisdom. Otherwise it get corrupted into evil.

But this doesn't mean you can't have some kind of mild spiritual practice while you're doing basic self-help / healing. You can. Just don't expect it to take to the highest levels of insight.

Yes, developing a spiritual connection is a big part of the answer. But also developing that connection properly is not easy. It requires serious commitment and work. Which many dysfunctional people are unable to muster. But again, don't take this on as a limiting belief. No one is stopping you but yourself.

Thank you for your answer. 

I can definitely see how spiritual techniques (yoga including, but it's not the only one) have prerequisites. I've recommended holotropic breathwork to my friends (or not) depending on their level of openness to their own emotion.

I still wonder what prerequisite I personally miss for serious vipassana. I've been able to sustain a basic relaxation / do nothing practice, as well as develop increased awareness of my body and emotions in daily life, yet when instructed to sit and return my attention to a certain meditation object, often tension builds up quickly to the point where I can't sustain it. If feels like an internal contradiction.

Quote

Perhaps the biggest obstacle for a dysfunctional person is that he/she will simply be unable to tolerate the stark brutality of the Truth which spirituality reveals. Which is why they are dysfunctional in the first place. Weak people cannot handle hearing the Truth. They have all sorts of twisted defense mechanisms to deny it all day long.

As (nearly) everyone who has battled with mental illness will tell you, you can't equate dysfunction with weakness  

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Developing a genuine desire for raw truth is essential to spiritual work.

I'm not sure how developing a desire works. 

For me, I do have some desire to understand. Got me to study physics, then got me into watching Leo . The 'lack' motivation is equally important though. 

But how do you develop or strengthen a desire? 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Elisabeth