Corrective attitude towards others - Does it actually help?

[7thLetter]

This is definitely a trap that I fall into quite a bit, and I’ve noticed it in others on these forums.

Is this a neurotic trap that we fall into or does it actually help others?

What I mean by this is the tendency to nit-pick at other people’s behaviors and try to correct them. For example, “This is how you’re closed-minded, because you said this, you did that and this.” “That behavior is exactly why you are unhappy in life.” “This behavior shows that you have a personality disorder.” “You’re unhealthy because you keep eating this.”

From my opinion it seems a little condescending and it doesn’t really help if the other person isn’t open to it. I definitely would say that it possibly does help when the person is actually looking for help. Especially in a coaching situation, as a personal trainer for example, the trainer corrects the client’s form in the gym, in that case it would help. But when it comes to going about your day and someone criticizes the heck out of your behavior and what you say, does that really help?

Is this an issue that we should be letting go of? If so, how?

Edited May 23, 2019 by 7thLetter

[Flatworld Crusades]

I see this behaviour here, as well as in people in my life. Here, where you have quite a lot of people all at varying spiritual and awareness levels this kind of nit-picking, as you say, is inevitable.  When you put a post up it is read with eyes of interest, criticism, lecturing and a greater number of agendas from different schools of thought.  These agendas push the reader to conquer the original post and display their superiority. 

There are so many doing it, and if anything particularily clever has been written, it is often lost in the crush by the others looking for a much smarter and enlightened post to write.

Leo is coping a lot of heat over this at the moment.

I think the old saying about glass houses and people throwing stones could be applicable here.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Flatworld Crusades

[iTommy]

3 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

From my opinion it seems a little condescending and it doesn’t really help if the other person isn’t open to it. I definitely would say that it possibly does help when the person is actually looking for help.

^ This. I usually appreciate getting feedback, so that I can eventually adjust if I agree with that feedback. Many people dislike when others try to correct them, for example in their spelling. I used to correct others, and most of the time they were pissed off that I did, but a few actually showed appreciation for pointing errors out to them. If a person isn't open to it, and perceives feedback like that as negative (feeling "attacked"), then it's often not useful to correct them, unless they see the value in your words.

3 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

But when it comes to going about your day and someone criticizes the heck out of your behavior and what you say, does that really help?

Is this an issue that we should be letting go of? If so, how?

I think criticism is good, it helps us grow, yet there are ways to convey that criticism in a more positive way. I think it's important to convey it so that it can be perceived as if you're authentically trying to help this person, not just simply trying to one-up him/her - making yourself seem more intelligent than the other/feeding your ego. I think nitpicking can be an issue and sometimes it's best to just leave it be, but some people value it too. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Do you see that you're taking a corrective attitude towards others with this post?  You're doing what you're criticizing.  I'm flabbergasted as to how common this blind-spot is.  It see this all the time on here.  And I point this trap out all the time on here and it never seems to sink in.  How can we better teach this trap on here?  Do I need to write an essay on this topic in my Journal for the 100th time?  Maybe I need to stand on my head with funny pictures moving behind me and speak in a robot voice with flowers next to me to make this trap sink in.  This is a case of: your attempt to control is bad and my attempt to control is good.  Well you can't have it both ways if you're putting taking a corrective attitude as a whole on trial.  You're gonna go down with your own conviction which is unsustainable for you and for everyone else.  It's an unsustainable standard you're proposing.  It's a case of do what I say not as I do.  Now that's a controlling attitude that's not only unreasonable, but dictatorial and lacking in full awareness.  This is a common Stage Green trap that's really annoying and frustrating to me because it comes up so often and it's hard to teach someone out of it.  You gotta get to Stage Yellow to really fully realize this blind-spot for what it is.  Stage Green takes its morality as the truth rather than just another perspective among perspectives.  This causes a trap and a blind-spot that unfortunately one has to get to Stage Yellow to fully see through.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Bill W]

I guess some people are prepared to spend more time and energy in going to great lengths to get their point or their belief across. People will then seem satisfied that they have "won" but the cycle will repeat the next day for them like Groundhog Day. That's what I see. That doesn't make it the truth. It's just my interpretation. 

I work full time and am a carer a lot of the time I am not at work. So by the time I have finished on my own development work I literally don't have time to go picking arguments with people who I deem "wrong". Although I am doing that very thing now perhaps.

Anyway I'm trying to move in the right direction and there will be mistakes along the way and lots of contradictions from me. I accept that.

[Joseph Maynor]

17 minutes ago, Bill W said:

I guess some people are prepared to spend more time and energy in going to great lengths to get their point or their belief across. People will then seem satisfied that they have "won" but the cycle will repeat the next day for them like Groundhog Day. That's what I see. That doesn't make it the truth. It's just my interpretation. 

I work full time and am a carer a lot of the time I am not at work. So by the time I have finished on my own development work I literally don't have time to go picking arguments with people who I deem "wrong". Although I am doing that very thing now perhaps.

Anyway I'm trying to move in the right direction and there will be mistakes along the way and lots of contradictions from me. I accept that.

Can one change without criticism in some form, including but not limited to self-criticism?  Can one do personal development work without changing?  Criticism is the life-blood of personal development work.  Criticism is the #1 value in personal development work.  When you pooh-pooh criticism, you cut your legs out from under you in your personal development work and you spread a counter-productive idea to others like a virus.  Criticism is what gooses you to change, otherwise you'll just stay in your current state.  So we should embrace and honor criticism (self-criticism and criticism from others) as personal development students and teachers.  When someone takes the time to criticize you in this work, instead of saying fuck you, you should say thank you.

Video on point to watch:

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[mandyjw]

It does help if it is done with awareness on both parts. The person pointing out the flaw should be conscious that they are making a projection as they make it.  

Even so when you point out something to someone and you don't want to hear it, you still do. I went to an art forum full of liberal artsy middle aged women and tried to talk about my right wing politics with them. Within a few years they had won me over. No one goes through a conversation where there is vulnerability of some sort and comes out unchanged after.  

[Angelite]

@Joseph Maynor you know when a criticism comes from a sincere place, or from ego, or from fears, or from having a certain limitation in someone's awareness. Sometimes it's time wasting. 

Sometimes it's simply impossible to share. Because everyone has a certain limit. It depends on the receiver too. And of course the conveyor. 

[Joseph Maynor]

8 minutes ago, Angelite said:

@Joseph Maynor you know when a criticism comes from a sincere place, or from ego, or from fears, or from having a certain limitation in someone's awareness. Sometimes it's time wasting. 

Sometimes it's simply impossible to share. Because everyone has a certain limit. It depends on the receiver too. And of course the conveyor. 

Sure, it depends on context, I agree.  But as personal development students and teachers we should have the balls to be able to give and receive criticism if it's given in good faith with honest intent even if it's coming from a place of Ego.  Ego is not bad, we all have Ego.  Some of us deny Ego or have Ego in the shadow, but that's a different problem that I'm not gonna address here.  We need to toughen up regarding criticism and learn to love it and to value it.  Nobody dies when criticism is done.  It often hurts, but that's what's needed to goose your Ego-Heartbodymind to change.  Change has to be precipitated by some form of criticism, whether it's self-criticism or criticism by others.  Otherwise we just stay in lazy mode and do what we're already doing -- jack shit.  We need to re-frame criticism as good as personal development students and teachers.  Criticism is the #1 value in personal development work. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Bill W]

13 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Sure, it depends on context, I agree.  But as personal development students and teachers we should have the balls to be able to give and receive criticism if it's given in good faith with honest intent.

How do we determine if it's in good faith with honest intent when receiving criticism? 

I guess some criticism could be given not in good faith and with a manipulative intent. It could still be a valid criticism (I.e. true and relevant).

Some criticism could be given in good faith with an honest intent and be absolute bullshit or nonsense.

Don Miguel Ruiz has a saying about speech that perhaps I can use with specific reference to giving and receiving criticism. He says your speech to another (which of course also includes your written dialogue) should be (a) true (b) useful and (c) timely. 

I take timely to mean relevant and appropriate to the circumstances. I also know the term 'truth' is always up for debate.

Don Miguel Ruiz also says that we should consider the following agreements 

1. Be impeccable with your word

2. Don't take anything personally 

3. Watch your assumptions (he says don't assume)

4. Always do your best

5. Be sceptical but also learn to listen 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Bill W
Correct Don Miguel Ruiz name

[mandyjw]

Criticism is how we connect with people. If I give you a compliment you say thank you, then the conversation ends. If I criticize you and you engage with me to defend yourself, I get to know you better. We criticize just because we feel disconnected and are seeking connection. Maybe we even create the flaws we see simply for this reason. 

[Joseph Maynor]

6 minutes ago, Bill W said:

How do we determine if it's in good faith with honest intent when receiving criticism? 

I guess some criticism could be given not in good faith and with a manipulative intent. It could still be a valid criticism (I.e. true and relevant).

Some criticism could be given in good faith with an honest intent and be absolute bullshit or nonsense.

Sure.  I'm just trying to distinguish criticism coming from a good place vs. criticism coming from a bad place.  But criticism coming from a bad place can still be useful, it's just gonna have shadier intentions and motives attached to it.  I wouldn't cling to that distinction too tightly, I was just trying to draw a useful loose distinction.  There are pros and cons to this distinction though, and I don't want the cons of it to outweigh the pros of it.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Angelite]

10 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

it depends on context, 

 

.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Angelite

[Angelite]

@Joseph Maynor yea but sometimes, it's not worth your time. You need to know when something is worth it or distractions.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Angelite

[Joseph Maynor]

48 minutes ago, Bill W said:

Don Miguel Ruiz also says that we should consider the following agreements 

1. Be impeccable with your word

2. Don't take anything personally 

3. Watch your assumptions (he says don't assume)

4. Always do your best

5. Be sceptical but also learn to listen 

Nice.  I need to work on 2 and 3.  Thanks for the list.  I'll make a note in my personal development journal.

[Commodent]

It's not helpful and it's quite arrogant. I stay far away from people like that.

[Truth Addict]

37 minutes ago, Commodent said:

It's not helpful and it's quite arrogant. I stay far away from people like that.

You should stay away from me.

Your move.

[Truth Addict]

@7thLetter

What is help? That's a hard question to answer.

[ajasatya]

12 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

Corrective attitude towards others - Does it actually help?

Corrective attitude may definitely help, specially if the other person is having a hard time to find inner strength to transform the chaos of their lives in order and discipline. At this stage, paternal figures such as Jordan Peterson and David Goggins will feel welcome because their role is to help people move from mature Red (chaotic/misused energy but willing to change) to Blue and Orange.

This is where straightforward teachings like "get your shit together" and "take some responsibility in your life" will make a lot of sense. The problem is that Green and immature Red usually hate that tone and will display a deep aversion towards it.

[ThermalTide]

From my own personal experience I find that a corrective attitude doesn't work, and usually comes across as judgement, which it very well may be. I work in a really niche job and the field tends to attract low consciousness people. My coworkers are not self motivated, they lack purpose, they are full of complaints. I went through a phase where this was causing me much grief- the realization that I cannot change these people was hard to swallow. I'm the manager, when I was first promoted I struggled to find a way to get these guys to do literally anything pertaining to work. I was saying lots of 'you should do ___' and 'you really should stop ____.' This approach only caused tension and didn't solve any of the deeper issues. Now I just assume my role and make sure x, y, and z get completed. I stopped with the should statements. I decided to disengage from the frustration that comes along with wishing people were different, and instead I focus entirely on myself. How can I be better? I feel that turning the corrective attitude inwards will do more good than trying to tell other people how they should be.