Awareness: is it a witness?

[Gili Trawangan]

Hi all,

It's my first post on the forum, but I've been lurking for a while. I hope to start contributing from now on, even though this goes against this body-mind's conditioning, my ego has always felt uncomfortable being part of online communities... or any community for that matter  but I'm trying to go against that for a change.

Just a bit of background: I came across Leo's videos while searching for personal development stuff about a year ago. At that time I was an atheist with much conviction and would have never been open to any other world view aside from the materialistic one. The night I saw Leo's video explaining enlightenment I went to sleep and had a dream (or not, I actually don't remember any images) and thought that I was going to die. I woke up startled with the heart racing and found myself saying "it's true". By the way, if you happen to read this, Leo, thanks  the only reason I was able to even hear the information with an open mind was because I identified with you.

A few months and a few meditation retreats later I had a mystical experience on mushrooms. My body dissolved and I became one with the universe. It was the most beautiful experience of my entire life, whatever comes second is far behind  All my notions of reality were shattered. Still, only a few months later the ego was and is still trying to doubt that experience sometimes. Since then I've been focusing on meditation and self-inquiry, and started doing kriya yoga a few weeks ago.

So here I am, still a bit of a newbie and trying to make sense of things experientially. So please forgive me if the following questions seem silly to people who are farther along the path:

In my direct experience, I have come to the conclusion that I am awareness and sometimes I'm able to fathom that there is no self. There is awareness of thoughts, body, mind, feelings, perceptions. These happen by themselves. But how is it that awareness is able to "inform" those thoughts and feelings? I mean, I am not the thoughts, but awareness of them ends up creating thoughts based on that awareness. The knowing of a thought or feeling influences the next thought and the next feeling. What I mean is, awareness doesn't seem to be simply an observer, formless and witnessing everything that happens. That same awareness "informs" the body and the mind. What comes into awareness changes the outcome of the thought processes. And to make things even more confusing, there are also things informing the body-mind that are not in awareness, such as the subconscious. I don't understand these connections. Awareness doesn't seem to be all-encompassing because there is the subconscious. So how does one make sense of this? I hear so many gurus say that awareness is untouched and that awareness is merely the witness... I don't get it.

Many thanks in advance for your responses.

Wishing you all the best.

[Inliytened1]

@Gili Trawangan you are much further down the path than you give yourself credit for.

And yes, it's real.  Awakening is the miracle of all miracles.  It's amazing.

So moving on..why the thoughts if we are awareness.

Well remember awareness is the formless or the nothingness that you are.

But in order for God. - you - to explore yourself - you must create form.  It's an illusion technically because the substance is formless.   So you in your current form are a "part" of the whole.  You have to be finite because you have form.  But you are a perspective through which God can explore himself.

At the same time though, you are still the whole chabang.  You are still God.

But its the only way God can BE himself.  Of course i use the word "he" metaphorically as there is no bearded guy in the sky.  It's all you.  

The form will have thoughts and emotions and subconscious, all of it to explore.  And God in his infinite power created the perfect design.  We as mere mortals can grasp what we can with our finite minds -  but we can tap into ourselves and discover ourselves with things like meditation.  That's the beauty.   With that we can raise our consciousness and we can discover our true nature.

Hope that makes sense.

Also welcome and much love.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Inliytened1

[NoSelfSelf]

Eveything awareness touch it becomes the experience withouth the observer there would be no experience

[Inliytened1]

@NoSelfSelf yup.

[Leo Gura]

@Gili Trawangan You've only seen the tip of the iceberg so far.

What you're missing is that this field of consciousness which everything is, is infinitely intelligent. Everything you see is materialized by this pure intelligence via Will into being.

"Physical reality" is actually occuring inside a giant Mind which "thinks" it into being. Like a dream.

Start to deeply notice the intelligence of every little thing around you. Every particle of dust is filled with infinite intelligence. Once you start to notice it, it will take your breath away. You've just gotten to used to overlooking the intelligence of everything.

Also, there is no how. The very mechanism of reality is before you on full display. Reality does not work via any mechanism. It is impossibly direct. The how is the what. What a thing is is exactly how it is coming into being. In nonduality there are no mechanisms because those are all dualistic.

It's hard for people to appreciate how radical this is. It means, for example, that your sense organs are not actually causing your perceptions. Nonduality denies sense organs basically because all of that is mechanical, dualistic, and indirect.

Nonduality breaks all scientific chains of causation. From a certain level of consciousness you will see that there is no causation at all. Everything is instant manifestion. As if the whole universe exists in suspended animation.

It is Eternal and Absolute.

Keep tripping and you will discover more of these facets of God.

Awareness is nothing. Even to call it a witness is too much and incorrect. There is no witness. The witness is nothing. If you turn your gaze back in on itself and ask what it is, you can feel there's nothing there. That's your so-called "witness". Just zero.

[Gili Trawangan]

@Inliytened1 Thank you so much for your response and for the warm welcome! 

If I understand correctly, you mean that I am both the formlessness, the witness Awareness and also at the same time the form (which includes thoughts and feelings and everything else). That I am the whole of reality... I can understand that intellectually, but it seems like a giant leap from where I am experientially.

I seem to remember Rupert Spira saying that there are three stages to the process: first, discovering you are Awareness (which is where I am), then discovering the true nature of Awareness (that it is infinte and timeless and unchanging) and finally discovering that Awareness is everything.

In order to discover the true nature of Awareness, what I have been doing is meditating and relaxing attention in order to stay as Awareness in meditation. And sometimes I get there, to that place where there is no self, only being. I can never stay there for long though, the mind starts to come and thoughts and images are formed. I guess I have to keep going, and trust that when the time is right there will be a revelation...

Thanks again

[noselfnofun]

4 minutes ago, Gili Trawangan said:

@Inliytened1 Thank you so much for your response and for the warm welcome! 

If I understand correctly, you mean that I am both the formlessness, the witness Awareness and also at the same time the form (which includes thoughts and feelings and everything else). That I am the whole of reality... I can understand that intellectually, but it seems like a giant leap from where I am experientially.

I seem to remember Rupert Spira saying that there are three stages to the process: first, discovering you are Awareness (which is where I am), then discovering the true nature of Awareness (that it is infinte and timeless and unchanging) and finally discovering that Awareness is everything.

In order to discover the true nature of Awareness, what I have been doing is meditating and relaxing attention in order to stay as Awareness in meditation. And sometimes I get there, to that place where there is no self, only being. I can never stay there for long though, the mind starts to come and thoughts and images are formed. I guess I have to keep going, and trust that when the time is right there will be a revelation...

Thanks again

Exactly, your everything. Its funny because its always been this way its staring us right in the face. Everything in experience is you and experienced by you. I always find analysing dreams a way to understand this, imagine the last dream you had, everything in the dream was all you, why do you think its any different now.

[Gili Trawangan]

@Leo Gura Thanks a lot for the reply. I can only understand what you've explained intellectually, my current level of consciousness does not "get it". I cannot grasp infinite intelligence for the time being, will have to keep trying. Psychedelics would be a good idea, and I want to (especially would love to try 5meo) but I currently don't have any access to them.

I think there are still some long held beliefs that I need to let go of... such as trying to explain things through causation. I can see that there is much work to do. Looking forward to it.

Thank you all for welcoming me with your responses! 

[Gili Trawangan]

@noselfnofun I don't know, I guess it's a belief  it's funny though, I remember when I was a teenager and had these vivid dreams; I would tell myself (and also some friends) that for me there was no difference between dreams and reality. That they were both experiences and I couldn't find any difference between them.

A few days ago I was doing self-inquiry and I focused hard on the 'I'. Somehow I became very conscious, much more than usual, and I had a tremendous sense that I have been asleep all of my life! It was quite distressing, it was just a feeling, or better said, intuition. Maybe even an insight? But I fell back to the base level of consciousness after a few hours and now here I am, trying to make sense of it all.

[Inliytened1]

@Gili Trawangan

[noselfnofun]

1 hour ago, Gili Trawangan said:

@noselfnofun I don't know, I guess it's a belief  it's funny though, I remember when I was a teenager and had these vivid dreams; I would tell myself (and also some friends) that for me there was no difference between dreams and reality. That they were both experiences and I couldn't find any difference between them.

A few days ago I was doing self-inquiry and I focused hard on the 'I'. Somehow I became very conscious, much more than usual, and I had a tremendous sense that I have been asleep all of my life! It was quite distressing, it was just a feeling, or better said, intuition. Maybe even an insight? But I fell back to the base level of consciousness after a few hours and now here I am, trying to make sense of it all.

ah man that's amazing, sounds like you are naturally very aware. Something inside you has obviously draw you to this. The thing is its all our conditioning that keeps us away from the truth, we have to unlearn everything and start  using our own experience as the test for truth.

If you  use your direct experience as the measurement of truth everything Leo is saying is actually completely obvious, its all our own ideas and beliefs that get in the way. As yourself do you wake up to a world each morning or dose a world wake up within you each morning? Have you every experienced anything outside of yourself? and can you ever?

Ah dude yeah defo thats it, we have been asleep our whole lifes until we wake up. Keep going your doing great

Edited May 22, 2019 by noselfnofun

[tedens]

3 hours ago, Gili Trawangan said:

In order to discover the true nature of Awareness, what I have been doing is meditating and relaxing attention in order to stay as Awareness in meditation. And sometimes I get there, to that place where there is no self, only being. I can never stay there for long though, the mind starts to come and thoughts and images are formed. I guess I have to keep going, and trust that when the time is right there will be a revelation...

@Gili Trawangan Very good job. But the time will be right only with growth. Drop all conceptualization/intelektualization of God. Keep that rule in the mind "all" the time. The key for growth here is concentration of Your awareness during the 'work'. It must be raisened. 

[Forestluv]

@Gili Trawangan Welcome to the forum. Great introspections and questions.

Notice how the mind likes to contextualize direct experience of Now into experience stories. The direct experience of Now is not the contextualization of “prior” experience into a story (the contextualization of “prior” experience into a story are more appearances Now).

The mind loves to imagine. That’s just what human minds do. Such imaginations can be deeply mysterious and magnificent. They can also be scary and painful. At the personal level, the mind would love to figure out the mechanism of cause and effect. Imagine the power of such knowing. Perhaps a human can mold and create it’s own reality. Perhaps it’s “above” a human mind. Perhaps it’s all One within appearances arising. An inter-connected consciousness. It’s fun to explore, yet a mind can can get so immersed into such explorations and thought stories it can lose presence of Now. 

[Gili Trawangan]

@noselfnofun Yes, in a way it's obvious, because I've never experienced anything outside of myself. But then there is the trap of solipsism, which I don't want to fall into... if one does not truly grasp the Self, and I currently don't, then one can find himself thinking that there is only this experience, this mind. And I'm pretty sure that's not It. So in a way it's obvious but in another way it's not  having the intuition that one is asleep is good, it's a step in the right direction I guess, but we have to really wake up! 

 

@tedens Thanks a lot, I'm starting to see that... I've had glimpses of higher levels of consciousness, so I know that it's possible. When I meditate I try to drop all concepts, but outside of meditation I can't help but imagine and create stories, the whole thing is so fascinating

 

@Serotoninluv Thank you  It's hard because on the one hand this contextualization seems necessary, not only in everyday life but also in consciousness work... otherwise I don't see how one can progress and integrate the insights that one has along the way. For example, today I woke up and, while still in bed and feeling sleepy, I had a glimpse of direct manifestation in the way that Leo talked about in his response. It lasted half a second, maybe less, but I saw the image of the closet in front of me being formed, after almost having been formed into something else. It's quite difficult to explain, and of course I am now doubting that it even happened, maybe it was just my imagination. It almost seems like a game is being played, @Leo Gura is God playing with me? Why did I have this glimpse today, I did nothing to make it happen, I had just woken up and was feeling groggy, there was no intent and no practice being done... A part of me thinks it was just my imagination, after reading your response yesterday pointing to direct manifestation (the ego always tries to downplay it)

I do try to remember these short glimpses (I have one every now and then), maybe if I have enough of them the mind will accept and let Truth in. On the other hand, of course, I do understand the need to be conscious of the present moment, it's crucial for realization, but do you think that enlightenment can happen without trying to make sense of things? Is the "secret" really to just give up thought altogether and let go?

 

Anyway, have a great day! (it's morning where I am, we're most likely in different time zones)

Edited May 23, 2019 by Gili Trawangan

[tedens]

5 hours ago, Gili Trawangan said:

I do try to remember these short glimpses (I have one every now and then), maybe if I have enough of them the mind will accept and let Truth in. On the other hand, of course, I do understand the need to be conscious of the present moment, it's crucial for realization, but do you think that enlightenment can happen without trying to make sense of things? Is the "secret" really to just give up thought altogether and let go?

 

I think You've almost have the right track. You will know.

[Joker_Theory]

@Gili Trawangan As i understand it the is no separation between the observer and the observed(The witness and what is being witnessed) like if you hear a sound were is the boundary between the hearer and what's being heard? Also, what is hearing the sound? Look inside and ask who and were do you hear the sound? If you look there is nothing hearing the sound like what's being heard is just being heard inside an empty head and mind. That nothing that is hearing that is something and there is no boundary between that  so everything is one.

FYI nothing = witness, they are one and the same.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Joker_Theory

[Gili Trawangan]

@Joker_Theory In everyday experience there is definitely the illusion of a witness. When there is a sound there is a sense of self that distinguishes the sound from itself (or myself, that's how it seems to be). Every now and then I see that sense of self for what it is, a thought or a collection of thoughts. So, even though what you are saying makes sense, it is not in my direct experience most of the time. Plus, even when I get very close to realization (I clearly see that the self is an illusion, a thought), this realization is forgotten and the ego comes back like nothing had happened. A few days ago, I clearly saw that my idea of self was just a story and I even wept, grieving that loss. But now, a few days later, I'm writing this as if nothing happened and the sense of self is present, alive and kicking, distinguishing "me" from everything else. It's very tricky...

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Gili Trawangan said:

A few days ago, I clearly saw that my idea of self was just a story and I even wept, grieving that loss. But now, a few days later, I'm writing this as if nothing happened and the sense of self is present, alive and kicking, distinguishing "me" from everything else. It's very tricky..

The self is RELENTLESS!

It's way trickier than you can possibility imagine at this point.

The self will not allow itself to be deconstructed. Because you're barking up the tree of life & death.

Even after a deep awakening the self will tend to regroup and come back with a vengeance. Your whole life hinges on it.

[noselfnofun]

On 23/05/2019 at 3:54 AM, Gili Trawangan said:

@noselfnofun Yes, in a way it's obvious, because I've never experienced anything outside of myself. But then there is the trap of solipsism, which I don't want to fall into... if one does not truly grasp the Self, and I currently don't, then one can find himself thinking that there is only this experience, this mind. And I'm pretty sure that's not It. So in a way it's obvious but in another way it's not  having the intuition that one is asleep is good, it's a step in the right direction I guess, but we have to really wake up! 

Yes definitely, it should be enough to motivate you to realise the self. I never fell into the solipsism trap I was more stuck on the belief of there being hard matter, that was my driving force to realise the truth as living in a materialistic world seemed to just be full of suffering. Good luck brother on your journey, I have a feeling you are going to do very well

[Gili Trawangan]

@noselfnofun thanks man, the best of luck on your journey as well!