Friends get angry when i show them SDI because

[Nivsch]

I put the extreme right-wing on blue, and the extreme left wing on green.

"Its politically biased! You say left is superior!"

I said that no, it just that that early stages are more surviving - MY needs, MY family...

Right = Me, My, Our...

So of course that extreme right-wing will be blue and extreme leftist will be green.

But my friend says "No. Stalin was left!"

I said - but how he can be left when murdering so many people?

And he said:

"because he wanted total equality. He doesnt care only his family but he cares all his society, he cares the whole state. And he thinks everyone is equal.

He doesnt believe in religion, he believes in sharing agriculture...

He thinks much more like the left than like the right...

Therefore stalin is LEFT! "

What do you think?

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Nivsch

[mandyjw]

Stalin was red.

Neither left nor right, he was below the civilized ideals of both parties. 

Spiral dynamics isn't a good thing to mention to people unless they are ready to move to stage green or almost stage green already. It looks like a very biased tool to the stages below.

The model makes little sense in your interactions with everyday people anyway. It's more of a distraction that separates us when you try to use it as a yardstick in relationships. It is still helpful when you are considering a community as a whole. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by mandyjw

[Nivsch]

@mandyjw ok yes you are right.

Thanks for the answer. Very interesting.

Do you think blue can be equally left and right or that blue is mainly right-wing?

[Aeris]

42 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I put the extreme right-wing on blue, and the extreme left wing on green.

"Its politically biased! You say left is superior!"

I said that no, it just that that early stages are more surviving - MY needs, MY family...

Right = Me, My, Our...

So of course that extreme right-wing will be blue and extreme leftist will be green.

But my friend says "No. Stalin was left!"

I said - but how he can be left when murdering so many people?

And he said:

"because he wanted total equality. He doesnt care only his family but he cares all his society, he cares the whole state. And he thinks everyone is equal.

He doesnt believe in religion, he believes in sharing agriculture...

He thinks much more like the left than like the right...

Therefore stalin is LEFT! "

What do you think?

 

I think Hitler was right

 

context

 

of course  

Edited May 21, 2019 by Aeris

[Forestluv]

@Nivsch Some people would want to use extreme examples of opposing views to justify their own view as being sensible and normal. Accepting that framework is playing into their assumptions. I would simply reject the statement that extreme left wing is green (since it is not). I would then reframe that left wing is green and right wing is blue. Rather than the term “superior”, I would explain why left green is more mature/developed than right blue. This frame is less adversarial and there is a better chance that a person would be open to learning. As well, I would highlight some blue values and acknowledge some green excess within the framework that green is more developed, overall, than blue. 

The intellectual understanding of stages up to Green is fairly simple. It’s not the conceptual difficulty that makes it hard to understand/embody, it is the attachment/identification to the beliefs that make it difficult. Usually this is due to unconscious conditioning and emotions, such as insecurity and fear. You can easily win an intellectual debate without winning any hearts or minds. . . For example, why would someone want  to evolve from blue to green? What’s in it for them? How would it improve their life and make them happier? . . . That’s the type of thing that softens people up and gets their attention. I would also reduce the emphasis of left vs right, because people already have preconceived beliefs and see right vs left  as “me vs them” based on identity politics. This will trigger defense mechanisms

[Nivsch]

@Serotoninluv Thanks! 

Where do you think the extreme-left is on the spiral?

Edited May 21, 2019 by Nivsch

[Forestluv]

@Nivsch I would say old-school traditional socialism is blue-ish. Yet politics is not my area of interest.

[Nivsch]

@Serotoninluv ?

I really dont have problem to give them the candy toffy "yes yes blue is extreme left too" just to make them fucking READ the summary I did on the model and to learn it.

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Nivsch

[mandyjw]

48 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@mandyjw ok yes you are right.

Thanks for the answer. Very interesting.

Do you think blue can be equally left and right or that blue is mainly right-wing?

From what I've seen blue is mainly right wing but there are lots of stage blue democrats too. 

[Leo Gura]

@Nivsch It's hopeless trying to convince such people (strong right-wing Blue) because they will always project their own biases onto you or the model you're presenting. Because they are not aware of how their mind is working backwards from their conclusions. Their dogmatic position is that right-wing is superior to left-wing. This is held as an absolute. And they have no interest in questioning that. So their mind will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to have that look true for them. They will cherry-pick evidence and use whatever rationalizations are available in order to generate their conclusion.

Of course left-wingers also do this to some extent because this is not a left vs right thing, but a fundamental mechanic of the ego-mind. But right-wingers do it a lot more precisely because they are less cognitively developed on average. Of course you are never going to be able to convince them of this, precisely because they are not open to it.

There is no cure for closedmindness.

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract." — Oliver Wendell Holms

If everyone could be convinced of their bigotry and closedmindedness, half the world's problems would be solved overnight. The whole trick is that people are in denial about it. And what's worse they are in denial that they are in denial. That's just the nature of ignorance. It cannot help being ignorant.

It is also almost always the case that such right-wingers have a very poor understanding of history. Right-wingers do not have an accurate historical understanding of Hitler, Stalin, nationalism, white supremacy, Marxism, capitalism, racism, civil rights, slavery, feminism, The Constitution, etc, and government in general. They are not interested in deeply exploring these issues other than as a way of justifying their pre-existing dogmas.

Because the whole point of being a right-winger is that you have some position which you wish to defend out of a sense of fear of losing it. You have some position which you hold as absolute which is actually merely relative. This makes genuine inquiry virtually impossible. Such reactive egoic motives corrupt all inquiry towards truth.

But good luck convincing a Blue/Orange right-winger of any of this.

Of course the left-wing in also not immune. But still better.

[mandyjw]

@Leo Gura You know what's scary as fuck? Highly intelligent right-wing people. I've met a handful and I don't know what to do with them.

Love them? I just finished your last video. Wow. 

[Leo Gura]

@mandyjw Intelligence is a dangerous thing when co-opted by ego. Intelligence without consciousness could destroy the world.

It's useful to distinguish between two kinds of intelligence:

1. Linear, rational, analytic, little picture, materialistic, technical, divisive
2. Holistic, synthetic, heart-centered, soul-centered, big picture, spiritual, wise, unitive

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Nivsch I tried the same with my friends they where not interested or just listened as friends. But had no interest. 

Two where a bit more interested but more into integral theory then sd. 

A good example of extrem left being blue or red are the zealots. (IIRC). They wanted to spread Jesus word at any cost. For the benefit of many. With aggresive measures, I assume you know more about this then me. 

Otherwise watching the riots during the g8-summit or potentially the yellow vests in france? 

The left and right parties have been juxtaposed by don beck, by their value structures and behaviour. In south africa. 

The left has been slightly above the right. 

Yet, as there have been for instance right pragmatists there are also left ones. 

Potentially if I followed your posts correctly there should be already people who use or have used SD, in your country. 

The book spiral dynamics in action says more about how to process unfolded. 

 

[mandyjw]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@mandyjw Intelligence is a dangerous thing when co-opted by ego. Intelligence without consciousness could destroy the world.

It's useful to distinguish between two kinds of intelligence:

1. Linear, rational, analytic, little picture, materialistic, technical, divisive
2. Holistic, synthetic, heart-centered, soul-centered, big picture, spiritual, wise, unitive

Stage blue's sense of community was a protecting force that we lost with Donald Trump. Would Evangelicals vote for a Republican even if he had little faith and almost no morality? Yep. I don't think Trump is focused enough to be that big of a threat, but the next one? 

The thing is that the people in the first category who are also very intelligent are suffering deeply, more than anyone else. They are the hardest people to love. 

[Aeris]

Talking doesn't work with all stages lower than green. ( and even green they need a breakdown )

Don't talk to blue or orange, fuck them with your best resonating reversed story of their own bs, go put their trash view in front of their eyes, be mercyless with blue or orange, especially if they need it. And if they fight with you, a free lesson for yourself.

 I don't have time to wake up slaves, but when I do it, it's with full love, and my love is not a gentle update, it's a crack bot forcing update.

a dog who shit everywhere in the house that his is,

it is right to teach him to smell his own shit for him to stop doing it.

Aside dog doesn't have the choice to upgrade. Be gentle with dog, and go out with him please.

Anyway, context is key, don't act violent with gentle, be ultra violent with violent tho

violence is the same than love depending the context, but violence can get your head off, so it is how I do it, don't do it at home.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Aeris

[Girzo]

I am always dumbfounded by people who are not impressed with SD. For me it's one of the most interesting theories I have ever heard about.

Some of my friends love it, some ignore it totally. My mind can't compute how you can be indifferent to something that radical.

[Aeris]

6 minutes ago, Girzo said:

I am always dumbfounded by people who are not impressed with SD. For me it's one of the most interesting theories I have ever heard about.

Some of my friends love it, some ignore it totally. My mind can't compute how you can be indifferent to something that radical.

they lack pre-conceptual awareness of some theory to grasp the value they could get from such a tool. ( I suppose )

You wouldn't show SD to a children

[hariseldon74]

@Leo Gura if one has a strong tendency towards the rational side this sometimes is because of their career requirements. I know in my career this is major requirement to do the job like that but I understand that's not the end all of intelligence and emotional intelligence 

[Leo Gura]

@hariseldon74 You got it backwards, you picked that career because you are that kind of thinker.

[hariseldon74]

@Leo Gura true I sure wish I was more like the other one. When I write poems or do things for others or in tune or encourage others I feel more like the real me though