Self Agenda Vs Reality

[Isle of View]

2 minutes ago, charlie2dogs said:

3 minutes ago, Isle of View said:

What you call true reality does not exist. 

and maybe you have never experienced it, did you ever consider that possibility.

 

1 minute ago, charlie2dogs said:

if you had you wouldnt be telling me that it doesnt exist

What you call true reality was within your experience. You remember it. It's not true reality. It is just another projection.

There is no such thing as true reality.

There is Truth and there is reality. Forget about reality. It's only good when you want to inter-connect with others. Otherwise go straight for the Truth.

Cheers, 
Chris

[Huz]

this forum has got some good information on this

 

[charlie2dogs]

28 minutes ago, Isle of View said:

 

What you call true reality was within your experience. You remember it. It's not true reality. It is just another projection.

There is no such thing as true reality.

There is Truth and there is reality. Forget about reality. It's only good when you want to inter-connect with others. Otherwise go straight for the Truth.

Cheers, 
Chris

truth is reality, both are the same, they both exist in the same place, neither are experienced by the identity.

[Nic]

51 minutes ago, Isle of View said:

I don't think any teacher lectures anything in order to convince people.

At best Leo wants you to open up to new ways of looking at things. Question your viewpoints and dare to have another look at existence.

I think (my dreams) that you think (your dreams) that through Leo's thoughts (his dreams) he wants to open up new ways of looking at things... Did he want to have those dreams that open my dreams of your dreams right now?

I won't make a certainty out of this, but I follow your intuition... I'd just say, yeah maybe, I don't know.

57 minutes ago, Isle of View said:

Thanks. Good to know you include me ;-)

You don't really know, do you? Do you really care? Why?

We can go on as long as my battery last mate! The world of dreams is a funny place! I like it too as you can see! 

Take care

[Isle of View]

@Nic

Why saying it, when you don't mean it?

 

And yes, of course, philosophy, thinking and debate will not bring us closer. Just words. Makes fun sometimes, except when the batteries go empty ;-)

 

1 hour ago, charlie2dogs said:

2 hours ago, Isle of View said:

 

What you call true reality was within your experience. You remember it. It's not true reality. It is just another projection.

There is no such thing as true reality.

There is Truth and there is reality. Forget about reality. It's only good when you want to inter-connect with others. Otherwise go straight for the Truth.

Cheers, 
Chris

truth is reality, both are the same, they both exist in the same place, neither are experienced by the identity.

The Identity is a construct to work/interact within a specific reality paradigm.

Truth is beyond that.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Isle of View

[Nic]

1 hour ago, Isle of View said:

@Nic

Why saying it, when you don't mean it?

Why not? Did I really have the choice? (not again)

I mean a lot of things that I don't say, I say a lot of things that I don't mean, I don't say a lot of things that I don't mean, but I do also say I lot things that I mean too  

Most of the time I'm not able to say where the difference is and the fact is, it doesn't make any difference only if someone makes one and say that it is bad or good but at the end, there are just someone else's dreams about my own dreams.

What is the difference anyway? Who is the " I "saying that I mean it? Me? Oh yes, I mean everything I say! Hehe! That is the trap of being my own judge!  I hope you don't believe to say only things that you mean... As far as I know, you've got the same problem that I have... Self deception!

What is meaningful? Meaningful like some important stuff to me like honesty, or objects, words, thoughts, dreams that have the faculty of serving my self-image? Am I a liar? Well for sure I Am a liar as my identity is based in wrong assumptions, how can it be otherwise? I can't speak the truth, but I just don't know it, would I be aware of it, I would probably shut up, wouldn't I ? 

Well, I'm aware of it by saying it (maybe) , but I'll soon forget about it. Let's say it this way, I'm a liar that tries his best to be honest like everybody else!

All I know is that all of this doesn't make me closer to anything. To me it's just fun and games for the ego, mind chatter, blablabla... This is why I always refer to my signature to wake me up from the dream! Stopping the question-answering process brought me peace of mind, 

I think it is time for me to seat down and meditate!

Was nice chatting with you!

 

 

[charlie2dogs]

3 hours ago, Isle of View said:

@Nic

Why saying it, when you don't mean it?

 

And yes, of course, philosophy, thinking and debate will not bring us closer. Just words. Makes fun sometimes, except when the batteries go empty ;-)

 

The Identity is a construct to work/interact within a specific reality paradigm.

Truth is beyond that.

consciousness created the identity body to experience this illusion we call life.  Everything the identity experiences is nothing more than an illusion or dream, no reality there.

[Joyboy]

I don't believe when you change your perception, problems automatically disappear, you just don't see that is a problem anymore. However, it's like kind of mental masturbation in another way  

I don't want to choose reality over my self-agenda which includes my core values. All my actions are base on that values, how can I live an authentic life without that. The reason I didn't go all in enlightment because I'm scare the shit out of me being a man who see nothing wrong with the world and extremely happy just by shit and doing nothing. This is fucking paradox man.

The only thing I know pretty sure is on my path of self-improvement, what ever will be will be

[Rodrigo]

17 hours ago, lambda said:

I just finished the video Leo posted today and came to the conclusion that I am completely self-agenda driven. I desire to improve the accuracy of my perception, but one could also consider that a part of my self-agenda. I spent a large part of my life as a victim, so becoming empowered to enact my agenda has felt like positive progress, but driven me mad with ambition, never bringing true satisfaction.

I'm confused by this concept of dissolving the self-agenda. By enacting our agenda, we inherently take an egoic perspective toward our perceptions (how does this serve me, how can I rearrange external circumstances to get what I want). 

How can one take any actions at all in life without doing so from a place of having an agenda? Isn't everything we collectively do, from eating to working to Leo publishing videos and creating Actualized.org coming from our internal agendas? Wouldn't the ultimate dissolution of the agenda be to simply to nothing (but then how could we preserve our survival?) 

This is all very confusing to me.

As long as you try to be or do as Leo or anybody else you will be trying to think like them and you will inevitably be confused. Listen to Leo or others, learn, study, but always think it by yourself.

If you twist and turn other people thoughts you will never be confused.Try to think like someone and you will always be in trouble (obviously it happens that we think like many people and are influenced already involuntarily, so im talking about WANTING to think like someone).

Maybe you dont care if you are self agenda driven or not, but now, because someone talked about it you want it to be important to you. That is why you are confused. Trying to think about other person priorities.

Think about it.

 

[charlie2dogs]

5 hours ago, 7oo13ad said:

I don't believe when you change your perception, problems automatically disappear, you just don't see that is a problem anymore. However, it's like kind of mental masturbation in another way  

I don't want to choose reality over my self-agenda which includes my core values. All my actions are base on that values, how can I live an authentic life without that. The reason I didn't go all in enlightment because I'm scare the shit out of me being a man who see nothing wrong with the world and extremely happy just by shit and doing nothing. This is fucking paradox man.

The only thing I know pretty sure is on my path of self-improvement, what ever will be will be

your core values are based on the identity, its ego, and desires

what do you consider an authentic life to be?

Do you really think that the identity can choose to go all in enlightenment as you put it?

you are the paradox, man

whatever will be will be, that makes the identity and ego feel great.

the real issue here is that your consciousness hasn't awakened from the dream that it created to play in. 

[FindingPeace]

On 25/04/2016 at 4:18 AM, lambda said:

How can one take any actions at all in life without doing so from a place of having an agenda?

It may not be possible to completely elliminate an agenda. Agendas are what drive actions. No agenda would result in no action. But this is the point in a way. There are basic core agendas that we are unlikely to shift, but there are so many other agendas or 'perceived' agendas that we have (all based on other beliefs and concepts) that we don't actually need. It is these superflous agenda that cause much of our suffering.

There is another way of looking at this whole concept. Objective thinking verses subjective thinking. Agendas are subjective, in the eye of the beholder. Reality is fairly objective by comparison.

Let's take Leo's example of the tree falling on the car. He implied that you wouldn't just walk outside and say "Oh, ok, the car has been crushed by the tree..". Well, actually, that's exactly what I would say... but here's the point. Most people would be all "Holy shit!", with all sorts of emotional reactions and a cascade of negative thoughts. All related to multiple agendas: you had a sentimental attachment to the car. You'll not be able to get to work so that will have consequences. The insurance company will cause to stress etc. This is all looking at it from a subjective point of view. Most people won't just see the situation for what it is, they will 'see' all the value and meanings that they assign to it all.

So, looking at the situation objectively instead what do we have? (And this is how I tend to view the world). There is a situation: the tree in the car and the car is destroyed. Ok. So what needs to be done here? The tree needs moving. The insurance company needs informing. Alternative travel needs to be arranged. A new car needs to be sought.

So rather than reacting in a subjective and agenda oriented fashion, you can take responsibility for the situation, as it is, and take the action necessary to move on from it. Then, once that is done, there is no more action to take.

So I guess what I'm saying is this: to make a start in removing 'agenda' from your daily life, you need to view reality more objectively and more mindfully. See it for what it is. Avoid judgments, criticisms and labelling of things. There's no need to label the situation as 'bad' or 'good' or make aganda oriented statements like "so why does this happen to me" or "great, now that's inconvenienced me". None of that shit serves any purpose other than making yourself feel worse. Stop viewing objects, relationships, people, situations in terms of "what's in it for me?" or "how does this effect me?". Instead see it in terms of "does anything need to be done in this situation?" and if not, be with it. In any case, be with it.

Relationships are the number one area in life where people impose their self agendas on to the external world. They look at it, and the person and anayse how it can serve them, and what they are or aren't getting from it or them. Rather than just seeing the other person, as another person - someone who is nothing to do with you, they are their own person living their own life.

Here's an exercise to try. Pick an object, person or relationship or a situation and think about all the ways in which you label it/them, judge them, criticise, value or how it/they serve you in some way. What do you get for it/them? You'll be surprised just how much of an agenda you really have. How everything is about you and what you want or expect. This is what you need to release. All these selfish expectations and impositions.

 

[FindingPeace]

On 25/04/2016 at 5:47 PM, 7oo13ad said:

I don't believe when you change your perception, problems automatically disappear, you just don't see that is a problem anymore. However, it's like kind of mental masturbation in another way  

This is a classic paradox that people can't see through. It is as if to say that to no longer see a problem as a problem is to lie to yourself. And that the 'problem' still exists. And this is what holds people back from internal growth.

I've seen this with people that are suffering from depression. They are offered pills to lift their mood. They believe that the act of lifting the mood is a deception and that the 'real' issues still exist. So why delude yourself? It does fix anything.

The truth is a problem is only a problem in the eye of the beholder. What looks like a problem to one person may not be a problem to someone else. So clearly the problem is not a 'real' physical thing, but merely a concept based on what an agenda requires. If I put a drinking glass on the table and half fill it, do you see a problem? It depends on the context. And the context depends on what you are expecting from the situation - what is in it for you.

If that was the only drink you were offered for the whole day then you would see a problem with it being half a glass. If you wanted to add something else to the glass then you would be glad it wasn't full. Either way, though, the situation doesn't change. It's still half a glass of water. Seeing it as a problem or not makes not difference. What if, instead of seeing a problem you just saw half a glass of water and then understood that some action was needed to either make it more or less full as required?

People think having less money is a problem. But is it really? I mean how much money do you need for it not to be a problem? You either have enough money for what you need or you don't. If you don't then you take whatever action is required to get what you need.

But most problems aren't problems. Most are 'anticipated'. We imagine something as worse than it is or with negative consequences, when the reality turns out differently. We impose a context on to everything from which we make judgments. Rather than just seeing the situation for what it is.

So, back to the original point. If our perception changes so that we no longer see a problem, then there is no problem and no action necessarily needs to be taken. It's not that we're deluding ourselves that there isn't a problem. There really isn't. Because problems do not exist in reality. Reality doesn't care if you have money or not. Or if you live or die. That's just reality being reality. It's neutral. Problems only exist within your own perception of reality - a perception that is formed by reference to your own agenda, and your own beliefs, values and experiences. Any problem is purely your own problem, within your mind. And is entirely relative to your agenda, beliefs, values, expectations and experience.

 

[charlie2dogs]

3 hours ago, FindingPeace said:

This is a classic paradox that people can't see through. It is as if to say that to no longer see a problem as a problem is to lie to yourself. And that the 'problem' still exists. And this is what holds people back from internal growth.

I've seen this with people that are suffering from depression. They are offered pills to lift their mood. They believe that the act of lifting the mood is a deception and that the 'real' issues still exist. So why delude yourself? It does fix anything.

The truth is a problem is only a problem in the eye of the beholder. What looks like a problem to one person may not be a problem to someone else. So clearly the problem is not a 'real' physical thing, but merely a concept based on what an agenda requires. If I put a drinking glass on the table and half fill it, do you see a problem? It depends on the context. And the context depends on what you are expecting from the situation - what is in it for you.

If that was the only drink you were offered for the whole day then you would see a problem with it being half a glass. If you wanted to add something else to the glass then you would be glad it wasn't full. Either way, though, the situation doesn't change. It's still half a glass of water. Seeing it as a problem or not makes not difference. What if, instead of seeing a problem you just saw half a glass of water and then understood that some action was needed to either make it more or less full as required?

People think having less money is a problem. But is it really? I mean how much money do you need for it not to be a problem? You either have enough money for what you need or you don't. If you don't then you take whatever action is required to get what you need.

But most problems aren't problems. Most are 'anticipated'. We imagine something as worse than it is or with negative consequences, when the reality turns out differently. We impose a context on to everything from which we make judgments. Rather than just seeing the situation for what it is.

So, back to the original point. If our perception changes so that we no longer see a problem, then there is no problem and no action necessarily needs to be taken. It's not that we're deluding ourselves that there isn't a problem. There really isn't. Because problems do not exist in reality. Reality doesn't care if you have money or not. Or if you live or die. That's just reality being reality. It's neutral. Problems only exist within your own perception of reality - a perception that is formed by reference to your own agenda, and your own beliefs, values and experiences. Any problem is purely your own problem, within your mind. And is entirely relative to your agenda, beliefs, values, expectations and experience.

 

you said: So, back to the original point. If our perception changes so that we no longer see a problem, then there is no problem and no action necessarily needs to be taken. It's not that we're deluding ourselves that there isn't a problem. There really isn't. Because problems do not exist in reality. Reality doesn't care if you have money or not. Or if you live or die. That's just reality being reality. It's neutral. Problems only exist within your own perception of reality - a perception that is formed by reference to your own agenda, and your own beliefs, values and experiences. Any problem is purely your own problem, within your mind. And is entirely relative to your agenda, beliefs, values, expectations and experience.

This is a very good and important statement, it took a long long time to reach the place of knowing and experiencing this.

[Salaam]

On 4/25/2016 at 11:18 PM, lambda said:

I just finished the video Leo posted today and came to the conclusion that I am completely self-agenda driven. I desire to improve the accuracy of my perception, but one could also consider that a part of my self-agenda. I spent a large part of my life as a victim, so becoming empowered to enact my agenda has felt like positive progress, but driven me mad with ambition, never bringing true satisfaction.

I'm confused by this concept of dissolving the self-agenda. By enacting our agenda, we inherently take an egoic perspective toward our perceptions (how does this serve me, how can I rearrange external circumstances to get what I want). 

How can one take any actions at all in life without doing so from a place of having an agenda? Isn't everything we collectively do, from eating to working to Leo publishing videos and creating Actualized.org coming from our internal agendas? Wouldn't the ultimate dissolution of the agenda be to simply to nothing (but then how could we preserve our survival?) 

This is all very confusing to me.

Why would you want to dissolve your self-agenda?  Why can't you have a self-agenda and a shared or global agenda that works in harmony together?

In my experience, the more you develop, the more you see how both are inter-connected and by balancing both, you get the best of both worlds.

Me, You, and We in whatever iteration can all work and grow and balance together in harmony.

However, we have to bring ourselves in balance and better health in order to be in a place where we can actually feel passionate about helping and sharing with others. When we don't our body sends us signals to things we are deficient in and we then tend to fixate on those, so they fill our view, and have us feel like we are solely self-agenda driven. The problems arise when people don't act on those signals and properly take care of them, distracting themselves with consumption or exploiting others and the earth to remove the symptoms of these signals, rather than nurture and develop the deficiencies that are underlying them.

These people on here talking about killing the ego and dissolving self are just being assholes to their body. Chasing some thing they think will magically make their symptoms disappear rather than facing real life and taking care of it. You don't kill yourself or your identity, you nurture yourself and as a result understand the purpose behind things like validation and belief. This creates balance and a foundation of health, from which you can have the strength and passion to care, so then taking care of yourself naturally extends to sharing and supporting the care of others.

[Salaam]

12 hours ago, FindingPeace said:

This is a classic paradox that people can't see through. It is as if to say that to no longer see a problem as a problem is to lie to yourself. And that the 'problem' still exists. And this is what holds people back from internal growth.

I've seen this with people that are suffering from depression. They are offered pills to lift their mood. They believe that the act of lifting the mood is a deception and that the 'real' issues still exist. So why delude yourself? It does fix anything.

The truth is a problem is only a problem in the eye of the beholder. What looks like a problem to one person may not be a problem to someone else. So clearly the problem is not a 'real' physical thing, but merely a concept based on what an agenda requires. If I put a drinking glass on the table and half fill it, do you see a problem? It depends on the context. And the context depends on what you are expecting from the situation - what is in it for you.

If that was the only drink you were offered for the whole day then you would see a problem with it being half a glass. If you wanted to add something else to the glass then you would be glad it wasn't full. Either way, though, the situation doesn't change. It's still half a glass of water. Seeing it as a problem or not makes not difference. What if, instead of seeing a problem you just saw half a glass of water and then understood that some action was needed to either make it more or less full as required?

People think having less money is a problem. But is it really? I mean how much money do you need for it not to be a problem? You either have enough money for what you need or you don't. If you don't then you take whatever action is required to get what you need.

But most problems aren't problems. Most are 'anticipated'. We imagine something as worse than it is or with negative consequences, when the reality turns out differently. We impose a context on to everything from which we make judgments. Rather than just seeing the situation for what it is.

So, back to the original point. If our perception changes so that we no longer see a problem, then there is no problem and no action necessarily needs to be taken. It's not that we're deluding ourselves that there isn't a problem. There really isn't. Because problems do not exist in reality. Reality doesn't care if you have money or not. Or if you live or die. That's just reality being reality. It's neutral. Problems only exist within your own perception of reality - a perception that is formed by reference to your own agenda, and your own beliefs, values and experiences. Any problem is purely your own problem, within your mind. And is entirely relative to your agenda, beliefs, values, expectations and experience.

 

You're over-looking a lot of nuance with some your assertions man.

What you focus on creates all kinds of cascades throughout your body, shifting chemical composition, pressure differentials, and electromagnetic charge (whether it's attractive or repulsive). So shifting your perspective also shifts all of the above. In other words, your focus, your frame, perspective/view as dynamic as it all is, has a chemistry with the rest of your body that has an objective affect.

How you RELATE to something affects how you feel about it. What you connect to with your awareness creates a contrast and that contrast changes with every new thing your awareness touches and interacts with. And again this contrast has an objective affect on your body's composition. 

For the depression, pill thing. They accurately believe the lifting of the mood as something that temporarily relieves the symptoms, but not something that heals and develops the underlying deficiencies creating the patterns of behavior and feeling that leads to depression and perpetuates it. You have to account for both dynamics before assuming that anyone is deluding themselves.

For the glass half full example, again there is a change and there is a difference. In your first example, there is a context of scarcity, in the second there is a context of abundance (having more to put into the glass). You can't ignore how the internal context of the person focused upon a particular object changes the context of a situation.

 

[FindingPeace]

16 hours ago, Salaam said:

For the glass half full example, again there is a change and there is a difference. In your first example, there is a context of scarcity, in the second there is a context of abundance (having more to put into the glass). You can't ignore how the internal context of the person focused upon a particular object changes the context of a situation

I was merely demonstrating how neither contexts are a representation of reality, as they were both different but the reality was the same. Thereby demonstrating that a 'problem' is purely subjective.

[Salaam]

58 minutes ago, FindingPeace said:

I was merely demonstrating how neither contexts are a representation of reality, as they were both different but the reality was the same. Thereby demonstrating that a 'problem' is purely subjective.

I feel you.

However, it is not "just" subjective, because the subjective has an affect on and creates a change in the objective. The reality did not stay the same, it changed. Switching viewpoints for instance  has an objective affect, because the brain activity across different regions of the brain shift in response to the change in view, creating a different hormonal response, and the other cascades I mentioned previously. It's very subtle, but with time we can grow sensitive enough to these nuances and track them, gaining clarity on how the structures of things and their dynamics inter-relate and shift each other across many different systems and contexts.

Structure and Dynamics are always linked, you can't ignore or dismiss one over the other. And also very important, you can't ignore or dismiss how they contrast. Those three things are needed in order to have a balanced view of reality on the most fundamental of levels.

1. Structure/Form/Order/Matter/Objective
2. Dynamics/Motion/Chaos/Energy/Subjective
3. Contrast/Connection/Chemistry/Electromagnetism/Tension

These three things are present and interconnected at all times in all things.

[Beeman]

Self agenda means serving your needs at the right way. Which means your self agenda is clear and truth. It does not mean serving your needs at the wrong way. Example:

You love one girl then you prank her by saying I love you. She doesn't know it is prank. Then she accepted your requests. In this case you motive or self agenda is to prank her. But if  you take this advantage as an apportunity to get the women that you love. It is called self agenda. Your true motive is prank but you take an advantage to fulfil your needs.