Is Nationalism bad?

[Deadline]

So ok, as a preface I am not fond of genocide, injustice, or any other intuitively immoral thing. But. Was Hitler actually wrong? A man with a passionate beautiful vision actively perusing and succeeding in its achievement. Same could be said about Gandhi, Stalin, Alexander the great, Napoleon, Mussolini, etc.. able to draw insane levels of passionate motivation for their life purpose, to do what it takes. Many exemplary people have dedicated their life to a nation its people, its conceptual idea in order to lead it to a better state, to fix its problem. Understandably  tribalism, however why not? if its your true passion. For example if you're a Kurdish self aware gifted person struggling in the injustice done to your nation is there a real issue in him attempting create a united Kurdish state with him as dictator? I don't think so... is there something I may be overlooking?

[jbram2002]

Hitler was not an example of nationalism. He was an example of extreme nationalism. 

That said, the question could be expanded to one about how people identify themselves. Do you identify yourself mainly as a citizen of your country? If so, why? What about that is desirable? What is not desirable? Is there a point where you would believe it better to not be seen as a citizen of your country?

For me, I'm American. There are plenty of desirable traits of Americans from the high values placed on personal freedom and justice to the ability to travel relatively unhampered throughout the modern world. However, there are also significant downsides from the extreme prejudices we tend to have and receive to the massive split in our national politics. I don't consider myself a nationalist by any means, but the party in power could be considered nationalistic. Definitely not to the extremes of Hitler, though. 

In reality, you could ask this question about any political point of view. In my opinion, the problem arises when you make such an opinion a major part of your ego.

[Shadowraix]

Nationalism at the expense of other people is setting one set of people as more important than another based on imaginary identities.

Nationalism is a statement at our inability to act as a collective.

"We can be united as long as its under my terms" doesn't sound very united if you are trying to force people who are unwilling.

I wouldn't call it 'bad' but its most definitely not ideal.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Shadowraix

[RichardY]

Nationalism mean of a particular birth. Natal. If you want to hate your own birth, so be it.

[universe]

15 hours ago, Deadline said:

Was Hitler actually wrong? A man with a passionate beautiful vision actively perusing and succeeding in its achievement.

Im not sure you and me have the same definition for success 

And also if it would be like that. I guess there are 864729101 people who have a vision of ruling the world. And then there are even more people who have a vision of living a life of freedom and peace. Which kind of goes against each other. So by making one person fullfill his vision you denied thousands or millions their vision.

Have you checked out Leo's video on the related topic? 

 

[Aeris]

6 hours ago, universe said:

Im not sure you and me have the same definition for success 

And also if it would be like that. I guess there are 864729101 people who have a vision of ruling the world. And then there are even more people who have a vision of living a life of freedom and peace. Which kind of goes against each other. So by making one person fullfill his vision you denied thousands or millions their vision.

Have you checked out Leo's video on the related topic? 

 

This is legit.

Now apply this idea to all current society. It's the same.

A rich élite live his LP through a giant illusion of rules and structure that serv them mostly. All this could remplace a good Hitler backstage modern.

Is capitalism better than Hitler ?

Is Big pharma better than a holocaust ?

[Leo Gura]

Nationalism isn't bad because good and bad do not exist.

But nationalism is problematic because it is divisive. It fails to recongize and honor the fundamental unity of all human beings by pitting one tribe of humans against another. It inevitably leads to hatred, violence, and war.

Nationalism is the prime example of collective ego in action. So nationalism suffers from all the same problems at excessive ego suffers from. And ultimately it ends up destroying itself.

Being passionate about ego, judgment, hatred, division, and violence is very problematic. Passion alone isn't enough, it must be channeled towards love rather than fear and hate.

All nationalist movements are fundamentally fear-based. They come from a position of scarcity and falsehood. They are anti-spiritual.

A high consciousness being will have a loving, inclusive, global perspective. Not a narrow, divisive, tribal one.

If you were totally conscious you would have absolutely nothing to defend or fear, and you would not judge or hate anyone or anything.

[CreamCat]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

All nationalist movements are fundamentally fear-based. They come from a position of scarcity and falsehood. They are anti-spiritual.

There are many social movements that are tribal and reminiscent of nationalism. That sounds like fascism of General Zod.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by CreamCat

[Truth Addict]

@jbram2002 ?

[Norbert Lennartz]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Nationalism isn't bad because good and bad do not exist.

But nationalism is problematic because it is divisive. It fails to recongize and honor the fundamental unity of all human beings by pitting one tribe of humans against another. It inevitably leads to hatred, violence, and war.

Nationalism is the prime example of collective ego in action. So nationalism suffers from all the same problems at excessive ego suffers from. And ultimately it ends up destroying itself.

Being passionate about ego, judgment, hatred, division, and violence is very problematic. Passion alone isn't enough, it must be channeled towards love rather than fear and hate.

All nationalist movements are fundamentally fear-based. They come from a position of scarcity and falsehood. They are anti-spiritual.

A high consciousness being will have a loving, inclusive, global perspective. Not a narrow, divisive, tribal one.

If you were totally conscious you would have absolutely nothing to defend or fear, and you would not judge or hate anyone or anything.

The same thing applies to etatism and government:

Government is problematic because it is divisive. It fails to recongize and honor the fundamental unity of all human beings by pitting one party of humans against another. It inevitably leads to hatred, violence, and war.

Etatism is the prime example of collective ego in action. So etatism suffers from all the same problems at excessive ego suffers from. And ultimately it ends up destroying itself.

Being passionate about ego, judgment, hatred, division, and violence is very problematic. Passion alone isn't enough, it must be channeled towards love rather than fear and hate.

All etatist movements are fundamentally fear-based. They come from a position of scarcity and falsehood. They are anti-spiritual.

A high consciousness being will have a loving, inclusive, global, anarchic perspective. Not a narrow, divisive, tribal, ruling, dominating, domineering, commanding, ordering one.

If you were totally conscious you would have absolutely nothing to defend or fear, and you would not judge or hate anyone or anything.

I love such unprompted (quasi) anarchist statements.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Norbert Lennartz said:

Government is problematic because it is divisive. It fails to recongize and honor the fundamental unity of all human beings by pitting one party of humans against another. It inevitably leads to hatred, violence, and war.

This is a terrible false equivalency. Government is not fundamentally divisive. Do not equate government with nationalist political movements.

Also do not conflate quality government with authoritarianism.

[Neorez]

@Shiva I'm struggling with that as well. We have to vote this weekend and I used to be politicaly "right" for our standards. But it just doesn't feel right to me any more yet. But it seems that the socialist lack the backbone to compete against the nationalists. I would like to vote for a spiral dynamic stage yellow party, if it even exists. How would a stage yellow party even look like? 

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Neorez said:

How would a stage yellow party even look like? 

There are no such parties. We live in a Teir 1 world.

Don't be perfectionistic. Vote for the highest consciousness people running who can win.

[CreamCat]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't be perfectionistic. Vote for the highest consciousness people running who can win.

Maybe, you should throw a party.

Edited May 24, 2019 by CreamCat

[Neorez]

@Leo Gura

Will do! I think it's a cool thought experiment to get an idea how a future yellow partie would look like? 

[andyjohnsonman]

Yuaval Harari just did a talk on it this week in Hungary. Very stage yellow understanding of nationality. I strongly advise it....

 

 

 

 

[Norbert Lennartz]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is a terrible false equivalency. Government is not fundamentally divisive. Do not equate government with nationalist political movements.

Also do not conflate quality government with authoritarianism.

We could also wrongly combine the quality of patriotism with nationalism.
It should be clear what is meant.

[mandyjw]

The problem is only when you make an enemy that you blame which is almost always done with Nationalism.

Since my last awakening I have reclaimed my patriotism that I foolishly let Trump ruin. America is a great country. Americans are not superior to any other, but for myself I love this land. My roots are here, my ancestors are buried here, a small fraction of them were Native here. My grandfathers fucked up their lives royally in WW2, I'll honor them for that. I'll fly an American flag, and I'll celebrate the 4th of July.  I'm not going to let some mislead president make me ashamed of my own country because he can't understand that American can be great and equal at the same time. 

[Leo Gura]

The key point is that you realize that there is no boundary whatsoever between you and all other sentient beings. And that all identities are fabrications for purposes of survival.

If you think you're an American, that's something you fabricated to make yourself feel good. It's not true and it's an unconscious survival function.

This becomes very problematic when people refuse to admit that they fabricate such identities. Which of course all nationalists will refuse to admit. The whole point is to ground the ego in that identity in order to deny Emptiness.

[mandyjw]

BUT LEO! You told me I have to get involved in politics again instead of having my head stuck in the sand. I was a patriotic American, I let go if it, I hated my country, I embodied no identity, and then I had an awakening and I realized that America is a huge part of my (God's) creation. 

I mean it is pretty fucking great. The mountains, the variations in climate, the miles and miles of coastline. I could spend my entire life exploring and not even know a tiny fraction of it intimately.