Is Nationalism bad?

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, jbram2002 said:

Specifically because of this is why it's important to not throw away all of the dualistic definitions when dealing with those societies and cultures. Speaking in nondual terms to dualistic minds is like speaking Latin to a Korean. It's a completely different language that sounds like hokey to those who don't understand it.

We are not saying to do away with all dualistic notions. Language is always dualistic so that would not even be possible.

What we are saying is to be more conscious of the socially constructed nature of human institutions and culture.

[mandyjw]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@mandyjw Firstly, you can do both.

Secondly, if everyone took your attitude we'd be living in Nazi Germany or worse.

If you care about human life, your worldview must be GLOBAL! Mankind's greatest challenges are GLOBAL. This cannot be resolved by just focusing on your local community. That's what got us into so much trouble that we're in today.

This planet will be destroyed if we don't adopt a global perspective immediately.

Nazi Germany!!!  If everyone did a lot of the exact same things I do, the world would be in big trouble. We all have our different jobs and purposes. I do have a global worldview but I think disconnected communities are a huge part of why our challenges are so great right now. People are looking for fulfillment through material gains, food and entertainment rather than where it's actually present, through rich relationships, connection with nature and being. I truly value the friendships I've made with people across the globe on this board, thanks to you and this community. I've learned so much more about the world from them and feel more connected to it than ever. You're blessed to have created such a  community. 

But I know the life that I want to build for myself and I know that building it will extend to help the world too. That's the beauty of the internet and of enlightenment and knowing yourself as One. 

I tried to get enlightened without doing shadow work and then I had an awakening and shadow work snuck up on me and ate me alive. Since going through it, I know that the Christian patriotic child I was wanted to be accepted and my shaming it for my entire adulthood built a really big shadow. I mean, Jesus was enlightened after all, and America was the pioneer of religious freedom. That pleased God immensely, you know it's true. It's part of God's will. I don't know if America is the promised land or Babylon or The Great Satan. But... we're going to find out. Honestly, we're God, so it's up to us.

I say, it's the promised land, the lost Garden of Eden. And I'm going to make it just that. 

 

[mandyjw]

@Leo Gura This kind of thinking combines your desire of wanting to change things up and have events in person and your passion for politics. You already have a worldwide reach and huge influence over people. Are you perfectly fulfilled? Or are you missing a connection with nature and a sense of community and connection with people in person? 

 

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Leo Gura This kind of thinking combines your desire of wanting to change things up and have events in person and your passion for politics. You already have a worldwide reach and huge influence over people. Are you perfectly fulfilled? Or are you missing a connection with nature and a sense of community and connection with people in person?

Not either/or but both.

[mandyjw]

Ah. Isn't that always the way though with nonduality? Together but separate. Fulfilled but wanting. 

You have no idea how bad my heart breaks for certain countries and communities around the world. I know that I can only focus on the here and now and doing good, the law of attraction. You said that a girl in a bar that you felt obligated to talk to gave you the idea of becoming a life coach. Maybe I'm your random girl in a bar/forum. 

I've seen the signs. 

[now is forever]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@mandyjw Firstly, you can do both.

Secondly, if everyone took your attitude we'd be living in Nazi Germany or worse.

If you care about human life, your worldview must be GLOBAL! Mankind's greatest challenges are GLOBAL. This cannot be resolved by just focusing on your local community. That's what got us into so much trouble that we're in today.

This planet will be destroyed if we don't adopt a global perspective immediately.

hey wait a minute, regionalism has nothing to do with naziism. in fact regionalism must happen if we want to solve the worlds problem. it does happen in some areas in non nazi germany but it also happens in italy with for example slow food or in the netherlands where a whole region is living after the cradle to cradle principle. if you wouldn’t have these bubbles inside of the big country bubbles there wouldn’t be progress into green. thinking in terms of world but acting local in sense of community, region or culture with a capital c (the one without ideology) is a foundational nessicity not only in rich countries. especially if we think about protection and use of ressources. bureaucracy doesn’t know how to protect a rainforest even if you teach them but a person who grew up there or lives there can learn.

still it’s a huge delusion if we think only this would solve the world problems but as nothing is happening fast enough, it still must go that way. (an open wound can’t be healed by a pain reliever that’s just applied to the central nervous system)

Edited May 25, 2019 by now is forever

[RichardY]

@now is forever Bureaucracy is overhead, and contributes to slavery and it's enforcement. Whether it's Ancient Rome, China, Washington DC or London.

Basic life needs, Food, water & shelter. Are heavily taxed and regulated, for the poor and middle class.

Somalis breed way more than, Indo-Europeans. 6.2 Somali Birthrate  to  1.5 German birthrate. Ethnic Germans much lower.

Ecosystems have an intelligence of their own, like the movie Avatar. Hives; if not checked, strip resources bare and move on, failing that, prey on one another.

It's not like World leader's don't know this. Only conclusion is demonic influence.

[now is forever]

13 minutes ago, RichardY said:

@now is forever Bureaucracy is overhead, and contributes to slavery and it's enforcement. Whether it's Ancient Rome, China, Washington DC or London.

Basic life needs, Food, water & shelter. Are heavily taxed and regulated, for the poor and middle class.

Somalis breed way more than, Indo-Europeans. 6.2 Somali Birthrate  to  1.5 German birthrate. Ethnic Germans much lower.

Ecosystems have an intelligence of their own, like the movie Avatar. Hives; if not checked, strip resources bare and move on, failing that, prey on one another.

It's not like World leader's don't know this. Only conclusion is demonic influence.

yes but we where not talking about how many people live where at the world - and especially not about how many people are born somewhere relative to somewhere else right now. of course it’s a problem that kind of thinking and if there is a wound at the head it would be good for the wound somewhere else when the head would be healed first. but if the head is not healable - maybe it’s also good to heal other wounds first. you are opening more wounds to heal one...

so yes a wound on the head has to be healed first if possible.

[Leo Gura]

28 minutes ago, RichardY said:

Bureaucracy is overhead

This is ignorance. Study how complex organizations actually work.

[Norbert Lennartz]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I am not saying that we need to eliminate all social constructions. Social constructions are necessary and useful. We just need to be conscious and honest that they are social constructions, not objective things. And we need to not get out identities attached to them.

300 million people can never go back to living in a pre-Columbus society. This is not possible due to problems of scale and technological and cultural evolution. You cannot put the genie back in the bottle. 300 million people requires SERIOUS bureaucracy to manage. Bureaucracy itself is not the problem. The problem is corruption in the bureaucracy, which can and must be eliminated.

The invention of modern bureaucracy is a miracle greater than electricity. Without it your life would be so awful it would hardly be worth living. People take all this for granted.

I agree that bureaucracy in itself is not the problem. Every company, every service provider has its own office, which I use when I use its services. Then I also trust the office. Or at least I accept it because of the benefit, even with corruption, if necessary. But the question is: What is serious management? The answer is in the question. If I don't like the product or the service, I leave their office because the exchange is not in my favour. I then go where the exchange is mutually beneficial.
What Leo has in mind is just another way of saying, "I'm allowed to rob you." 

[now is forever]

bureaucracy is often times to slow, to complicated in its processes and there are not enough adjustment processes. the less formality the better.

the wound in the head i was referring to was the relative thought in population growth. i think it’s a by product of many things, it’s also something that would be good not to be seen global but more local - as a comparison on a global level produces ignorance. it’s mostly a problem in the head of the people a lack in the supply chain of resources, information and methods. 

Edited May 25, 2019 by now is forever

[Norbert Lennartz]

No, sorry, it is just another way of saying, "I'm allowed to rob you globally."  

I love it.

[mandyjw]

Our government is too large and complicated for any one person to understand. Isn't that what is meant by bureaucracy? There's no way that corruption can be taken out of it without simplifying it first. It's pretty amazing that it works as well as it does. 

There will never be an elected government that does what needs to be done for climate change, or the national debt problem. They have to be popular, they only get a four year term. There's no long term project... the ones that REALLY need to be done, that can be accomplished by a democratic government that is electing leaders with short terms. It needs to be accomplished by the people, because they have a vision and a love for the world. It's a mistake to think that government and politics will fix climate change or our biggest problems. Those problems are in our hands. 

It's a mistake to think that conservatives need to evolve into being liberals, when conservatives are trying (sort of) to address the bureaucracy problem. I think spiral dynamics is very useful and that's how it happened for me personally, but it's really important to remember that they are both two halves that need to be integrated. Republicans and conservatives aren't all stingy, they just can't see the actual good that their tax dollars do. When your taxes are going to fund unnecessary wars, how could you not be for lower taxes? Conservatives and liberals have reacted against each other, splitting themselves into two. They need integration, this is not a war, this is duality and law of attraction at work making them more and more distant from each other. 

Having a local community with friends who you barter and trade with is a beautiful thing, especially if you feel like your tax dollars are funding evil. I've had the experience of hiring people who are out for profit and always concerned about any little thing that could cost them money or get them sued. They treat me like an object, not a human being. I've also had the experience of hiring people who do their job because they love it, and are fulfilled in being able to do the work they love and help out someone they love. Those people become friends. You trade with them, you give them food out of your garden, you make friends with their families, you meet more people through them. Government sucks the unique human connection out of everything and democrats only want to more and more of it. They think it's the one solution to our problems and they don't have a more holistic view. 

People really like the illusion that they are independent and yet they trust in a system that's too large to be understood by any one person to take care of them. They would rather trust in a system than in people whose eyes they can look into and whose hands they can shake. Their egos are triggered more by a person than by a system. They don't want to put their faith in God but they put faith in their a fictitious and unreal understanding of a government that they can never understand. There's a greater vulnerability required to trust your actual neighbors when you've seen their flaws and limitations in real life. Everyday human connection is everything.

When we put connection with God (Being, Source, Etc) first we act out of love and love connects us naturally. 

 

 

[Norbert Lennartz]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

In practice, no you can't, because we live in a globalized world. You cannot just build a wall between your community and the outside world. Because fundamentally everything is interconnected. Eventually your commune would die out or become a cancer.

The issue of running a good society is very complex. You cannot it do it in isolation, or by sticking your head in the sand, or by ignoring issues of mass scale. Whatever solutions you imagine must work at the scale of 100s of millions of people AT LEAST, and even at the scale of 7 billion. Otherwise you're not actually addressing the deepest issues, you're just offloading them on someone else to solve.

Yes, you can create a small commune of millionaires who live on a golf course in a gated community with security guards. But this is all made possible by the larger society which maintains the police, military, legal system, monetary system, education system, fire department, important regulations, food inspections, vaccinations, environmental protections, trade treaties, taxation, nuclear weapons, telecommunications, immigration, airports, etc, etc. Your little commune could not exist without all that as supporting infrastructure.

Just as an example of how everything is interconnected: let's say you build your perfect little commune on a tropical island. Everything is going great until some large corporation decides to use your island chain as nuclear dump site. A giant oil tanker full of nuclear waste material come and dumps 100 tons of radioactive material on a neighboring island. This material leeches into the water and gives 70% of the people on your island cancer which you cannot cure without flying back to the mainland. But to cure your cancer requires you pay $100,000 in medical bills which you cannot afford because you lived on a remote island with no major economy. You have no way to stop this from happening because your island is without any political power. So your commune very soon dies.

Do you think the state will build the roads for us and we can't do this without him?

Everything you enumerate (police, military, legal system, monetary system, educational system, fire department, important regulations, food controls, vaccinations, environmental protection, trade contracts, taxes, nuclear weapons, telecommunications, immigration, airports, etc.) existed, as far as technically possible and reasonable, even before the state.

And there is no objective reason why a state could solve this better. Especially not for 7 billion people. Because the state can only be run by the same people who are there anyway. The difference is only the monopoly of violence. So the question is not what the state is good for, but what coercion is good for. You see, again the answer lies in the question.

[Shadowraix]

Nonduality does not eliminate duality. It's duality and more! Keep your mind to the stars but your eyes to your feet. 

[Norbert Lennartz]

@Shadowraix What does that imply at this point?

[now is forever]

On 24.5.2019 at 0:24 PM, mandyjw said:

I was a patriotic American, I let go if it, I hated my country, I embodied no identity, and then I had an awakening and I realized that America is a huge part of my (God's) creation. 

I mean it is pretty fucking great. The mountains, the variations in climate, the miles and miles of coastline. I could spend my entire life exploring and not even know a tiny fraction of it intimately. 

wait until you discover that america includes more than the united states. wait until you discover how there are miles and miles of coastline around all shores of the world and how great the himalayas are and how green the amazon. check the vastness of the world, why limit yourself?

but the world might not want to be limited to stars and stripes.

get your world citizenship today!

Edited May 25, 2019 by now is forever

[Norbert Lennartz]

I feel as a human being, not as a citizen.

Citizens are subjects.

[now is forever]

On 24.5.2019 at 3:49 PM, Norbert Lennartz said:

 Democracy is one of the anti-spiritual institutions we have talked about.

then what is spiritual? just curious as democracy is more or less only a definition about how an entity of power is defined and a very softly defined word  for how the will of everyone is represented through a group of people who make decisions and manage a population of a not completely random size.

and while at it, if you don’t want to be subject to the world, would you rather have the world subject to you. or would you rather be an object?

Edited May 25, 2019 by now is forever

[Norbert Lennartz]

It's so soft that it requires a monopoly on the use of force.