MBTI, Spiral Dynamics Connection?

[peqkno]

As I looked through some of the Personality Types in MBTI, I began thinking about if you could put some of them of the Spiral.

Like:

- Campaigner (ENFP) in Green
- INTJ, INTP in Yellow

... generally speaking, 'cause no one is just one color.

So, hmm. Your thoughts?

[Leo Gura]

This was explained in my last Spiral Dynamics video.

No, you cannot map types to stages. Types are an independent axis. Just like how male/female cuts across all stages equally. Do not try to map males to Red or females to Green. Likewise with personality types.

And stages and types are not the only axes. There is more. See my vid about that.

[Girzo]

Enneagram kind of does both.

[ValiantSalvatore]

In the audiobook Kosmic Consciousness Ken Wilber mentions that the expression of the personality type changes or of any typology, as soon as they go up a stage. 

Yet, the "lines" are independent. Yet, the expression of the personality type changes.

For instance, I see quite a lot of orange (orange/green) Infjs which are very different from green or yellow infjs. 

[Leo Gura]

Ennegram is also a type, like male/female.

[Girzo]

Ah yes, I have had in mind some hybrid of Enneagram and Spiral Dynamics. Just checked and the original thing doesn't have the axis of development in it.

It is probably this paper that got me mistaken: http://www.goconscious.com/home/spiral_dynamics/spiral_dynamics_and_the_enneagram_journal_article.html

[ValiantSalvatore]

@peqkno Also, each stage takes from 5-10 years to go through if you are over 25 years old. 

If you are young you are fortunate, since you can according to Wilber (I never found a study), grow a stage in 2 years if you meditate for on average 1h a day.

So, you could go to turquoise in 4 years as long as you are under 25, people vary so it can also take a little longer or shorter. 

Not sure if psychedelics or so help, in his video series the Ken Show he mentions psychedelic mushrooms because of the legalization in Denver. Yet, they induce "state-stages". Which can be permanent regardless of which stage you are at, green, blue, purple, coral. 

Also, weightlifting can increase the growth in stages, Wilber says that it puts the body into growth "mode" and helps to grow stages, Wilber studied biochemistry, so no idea what exactly happens, he never mentioned it. Yet, most likely some "psycho-spiritual" growth.

The audiobook was published in 1999 so no idea if anything changed. 
 

Edited May 18, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[Girzo]

10 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

Not sure if psychedelics or so help

I feel like taking psychedelics regularly for a year has accelerated my growth into Green, but nothing too exceptional. Kriya Yoga feels just as effective if not more.

I remember reading a story of a Purple guy, who was totally dysfunctional and scared of life and started taking LSD. It had grown him to Red and he became a drug-dealing, hooker-loving thug. So it seems that psychedelics don't automatically make you a hippie but push you through levels one after another. Which is good because that means you can use them to grow yourself indefinitely. At least I hope so, I acknowledge there always may be some other limiting factor.

 

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Girzo I don't know I never took them regularly. Yet, I agree that they can help.

I tripped about 10-20 times now approx. somewhere in that range. I always set intentions and meditated before for 1h + journaling or meditated during the come up or while the effects where present.

The last trip I meditated for 4h straight I don't know why. I just did it and went quite deep.

Now, I recall that Ken mentions in the audiobook, that psychedelics show peak stages (let's one enter state-stages), yet he never could say if they helped or he just refrained from answering that for w/e reason.

I also think that they help especially with spiritual growth, yet I think for emotional growth shrooms may be better. I never tried them though. But that is what people say?

I definitely felt everything being streamlined as a process (it was quite easy to deal with processes), I was just constantly aware of processes and kept thinking about the stages of development. With a formal meditation practice, they are quite useful imo. 


I am very curious now, it's been a year now almost. So, I will see what the next trip will be like. They surely opened up some inner demons. Meditation retreats can be similar imo. ( I never had a kriya experience with LSD)

40 minutes ago, Girzo said:

Kriya Yoga feels just as effective if not more.

I definitely want to try some kriya techniques, especially in combination with hatha-yoga. I read up what my kriya experience, has untangled and am not very surprised how it affects me potentially, in the chakra "system". 

42 minutes ago, Girzo said:

I feel like taking psychedelics regularly for a year has accelerated my growth into Green, but nothing too exceptional. Kriya Yoga feels just as effective if not more.

I remember reading a story of a Purple guy, who was totally dysfunctional and scared of life and started taking LSD. It had grown him to Red and he became a drug-dealing, hooker-loving thug. So it seems that psychedelics don't automatically make you a hippie but push you through levels one after another. Which is good because that means you can use them to grow yourself indefinitely. At least I hope so, I acknowledge there always may be some other limiting factor.

 

That's great! I feel similar with stage yellow or even higher... sometimes...., because I meet most of the conditions described by ken + the peak experience with psychedelics, definitely helped me to see out of the eyes of turquoise. Now that I read-up a bit... I am quite happy that many things don't bother me as much anymore. Yet, I am still plagued by chaos from time to time, yet the efficiency I can deal with it has significantly increased.

I lack blue/orange the most currently. IMO. The story above sounds crazy lol. 

 

[now is forever]

15 hours ago, peqkno said:

As I looked through some of the Personality Types in MBTI, I began thinking about if you could put some of them of the Spiral.

Like:

- Campaigner (ENFP) in Green
- INTJ, INTP in Yellow

... generally speaking, 'cause no one is just one color.

So, hmm. Your thoughts?

i think that would in a sense be possible if you could use the types like the development stages. in a sense if you’d try to adapt to different coaping mechanisms of different types you might also adapt to some of the traits if that would be possible and by that you would maybe find out that people in higher spiral dynamics colours might not stick to one coaping mechanism alone and use different thinking types and don’t really fit into one of the types alone, even though having an underlying thinking type they where born with and grew into. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Make whatever connections you want to.  They're your models.  You don't need anybody's permission to use your models in any way you want to.  Anything in your mind is yours to experiment with how you see fit.  You tell us what connections you see between your models.  Hopefully you get what I'm trying to communicate to you here.  Don't let anybody tell you how to think.  If you're wrong, so what, you'll learn that if it's important.  But you'll learn more by taking full ownership of your mental models.  This requires being independent-minded.  I don't particularly like the idea that the Spiral applies to multiple axes or dimensions of life.  To me that's B.S.  But the point is I have my own ideas.  I don't care that someone sees things differently except to see if their model is better than mine for me.  See, it all comes back to for me for me.  I don't need to ask anybody's permission for anything.  I don't seek that.  Everybody else is making shit up just like you are and they wanna be right, but that's their trip not yours.  It means nothing to you that someone else wants to feel right in their own mind about the appropriateness of inappropriateness of your models.  

Edited May 19, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

Here's some work my accountability partner and I did.  Personal development models are just connections, don't make more of them than they are.  It's good to make connections, just don't white-knuckle cling to them.  But don't be so stubborn that you fail to make connections.  These are just models.  That's all they are.  Your life is not gonna fall apart because God forbid you applied some model.  In fact, you'll open your mind up by so doing -- so long as you don't start to take your own bullshit too seriously.  Have fun and use your mental genius to see connections that most people don't even care to make. Every Spiral Stage does sort of resonate with a MBTI type.  That doesn't mean that people at that MBTI type are gonna be that color though.  You gotta be able to have an open enough mind where you don't stop yourself from engaging in this kind of outside-the-box thinking.  This is exactly what you should be doing with all your models, looking for connections and ways to integrate them.  So what if you're wrong!  Nobody is gonna die if you're wrong about how you re-wire your models.  And they are your models because they're in your head.  Experiment with everything!

Beige - ESFP

Purple - ESFJ

Red - ESTP

Blue - ESTJ

Orange - ENTJ

Green - ENFJ

Yellow - INTJ

Turquoise - INFJ

Coral - TO BE DETERMINED

Teal - TO BE DETERMINED

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers–Briggs_Type_Indicator

Edited May 19, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[now is forever]

29 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Here's some work my accountability partner and I did.  This is just a connection, don't make more of this than it is.  It's good to make connections, just don't white-knuckle cling to them.  But don't be so stubborn that you fail to make connections.  These are just models.  That's all they are.  Your life is not gonna fall apart because God forbid you applied some model.  In fact, you'll open your mind up by so doing -- so long as you don't start to take your own bullshit too seriously.  Have fun and use your mental genius to see connections that most people don't even care to make.

Beige - ESFP

Purple - ESFJ

Red - ESTP

Blue - ESTJ

Orange - ENTJ

Green - ENFJ

Yellow - INTJ

Turquoise - INFJ

Coral - TO BE DETERMINED

Teal - TO BE DETERMINED

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers–Briggs_Type_Indicator

i‘d say that it could be something that fits if you manage to integrate some of the traits of every type, but somehow for an infj it would mean there is esfp at turquoise. and probably the order would change depending on the type someone starts out with. while people also start out on different colours of the spiral. if it was really a special personality trait that made up turquoise, and there wasn’t a chance changing some of your coaping mechanisms, it would be impossible to reach turquoise for some personality types. what stands against the thought that people can evolve. so it’s doubtable even though some personality types might have an advantage before others.

thanks it’s interesting to make that connection. ?

Edited May 19, 2019 by now is forever

[tsuki]

Spiral dynamics is a hierarchy, while MBTI is not. They are fundamentally different.
SD is an ordered structure that is showing the challenges that individuals need to overcome to grow.
MBTI on the other hand aims to expose the underlying mechanism that gives rise to various personalities.
It does not order those personalities into better or worse, higher or lower. They all come with pros and cons and are carefully balanced. It is similar to Enneagram in this respect, but enneagram talks more about how we cope with suffering.

Edited May 19, 2019 by tsuki

[tenta]

INTP can easily be orange.

[Joseph Maynor]

17 minutes ago, tenta said:

INTP can easily be orange.

Good.  You're thinking.  That's what we want.  Why do you think that?  Does INTP capture the energy of Orange more than any other type does?  That's what I'm doing is trying to find the one Myer-Briggs type that best captures the energy of each Spiral stage.  That's the task that I was working with. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[now is forever]

i wonder more if the personality types are can be ordered in a contradiametrical way on a circle. if you would go after the spiral you‘d need to order them after inner game outer game as usually the colours change from being more selfcentered to be more social to more selfcentered to more social, alternating. so how does that fit with assigning the extroverted type to the whole first tier and the introverted to the second tier?

[ValiantSalvatore]

4 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

In fact, you'll open your mind up by so doing -- so long as you don't start to take your own bullshit too seriously.  Have fun and use your mental genius to see connections that most people don't even care to make. Every Spiral Stage does sort of resonate with a MBTI type.

@Joseph Maynor
From what I perceive starting with functions (I read the wiki article you posted especially why exactly mbti is not very well acknowledged by psychologists). 

Generally, of most people I meet, dominant NI types seemed to be higher but ultimately play some sort of chameleon role in their day to day life. Also, NI users who are somewhere in the secondary or tertiary "stack" of functions. I don't know why it could be because they have a very keen premonition about the future and tend to not be as materialistic as NE types are for instance.

Most NE types I meet that I meet are mostly interested in material stuff, for instance, a lot of tertiary users ESFJ's and ESTJ's are quite family oriented and relationship-oriented, and tend to be more conservative or traditional. While higher NE users are especially ENXP are mostly in for experiences and adventures and are a bit more laid back about materialism. INTP's and INFP's seem to deal as well as I do personally.. as an "INFJ" with materialism and are generally a bit more unconventional. 

I don't meet a lot of extroverted people that I would rank very high, some are quite deep and it takes some time to get to know them. While most extroverted people do stuff that consider solely, survival in the outside world. I know I rant a little against ESTJ's, yet I find them to be the most orange or blue. Either way, they are very family oriented and do their sh*t or they are very status sensitive. Regardless of male or female. 

Although there are exceptions and I love that. 

I would say or make a ranking as follows:

Purple: ISFP, ESFP, 

Red: ESTP, ESFP
Blue: ESTJ, ESFJ, ISFJ, ISTJ, ENFJ
Orange: ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTP, ENTP, ESTP, INTJ

Orange/Green: ENFP, INFJ

Green: INTP, INFJ, INFP, ENFJ, ISFP

Yellow: INTP, INTJ

Turquoise: ?? From personal experience Intuitive of NI or NE most likely. 

I would rather ascribe personality types to mystics. So here I go:

Mooji: ISFJ
Shinzen Young: ISTJ
Eckhart Tolle: INFJ
Peter Ralston: ENTJ
Jiddu Krishnamurti: ESTP
Osho: ENTP or ENFP
Adjashanti: ISTP
Sadhguru: ISTJ
Allan Watts: ISFJ
Mingyur Ringpoche: ESTJ (not sure on this one, but quite sure) 
Dalia Lama: ESTJ
"Ken Wilber": ISTP
Doshin Roshi: INFJ (I assume)
My zen master (INFJ)
Thich Nhat Hanh: ISFP or ISTP.



 

Edited May 19, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[peqkno]

19 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Make whatever connections you want to.  They're your models.  You don't need anybody's permission to use your models in any way you want to.  Anything in your mind is yours to experiment with how you see fit.  You tell us what connections you see between your models.  Hopefully you get what I'm trying to communicate to you here.  Don't let anybody tell you how to think.  If you're wrong, so what, you'll learn that if it's important.  But you'll learn more by taking full ownership of your mental models.  This requires being independent-minded.

Took a screenshot of your replies, like them.  
After I read up on more AQAL and MBTI, I'll see what connections can be made and if they hold.