Donald Trump and Spiral Dynamics

[Geromekevin]

19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't confuse my degree of openmindedness and self-reflection with that of Republican.

I have no problem re-evaluating my positions and changing them. I've changed my positions and worldview more than you can imagine.

If Trump denuclearizes North Korea, I will acknowledge it and my understanding of him will change. I will have to admit that I underestimated him.

But I wouldn't bet on that happening. There's higher odds of him starting WWIII.

There is no way North Korea will give up its nukes given the US's penchant for regime change. Kim would be suicidal to do so. If he gives up his nukes the US will want to bomb and overthrow him like in Iran, Iraq, and Libya.

Think about it, if you were a dictator and you had nukes, why would you ever give them up? Having them means you will never get invaded. The US cannot invade North Korea because they would nuke South Korea. So counter-intuitively those nukes are maintaining peace.

North Korea having nukes is not as big a problem as people make it out to be. They would never use them aggressively because they know it would be suicidal. If North Korea ever used a nuke first, they would be nuked by the US until there was nothing left of North Korea. And they know this. North Korean nukes cannot even reach most of the US. So they are severely overpowered by the US. So all that having a few nukes does for North Korea is provide a nice obstacle to US invasion.

The irony is that the US is the aggressor, not North Korea. North Korea is practicing self-defense. Which is totally expected. What else can they do? They have to maintain their regime as any ego would do.

I'm always open to being proven wrong. The above position is not ideological dogma. It's just my best analysis of the situation. Of course my analysis can be disproven in the future. You can't do better than your best analysis at any given point in time. Political analysis is never Absolute, it's probabilistic given so many unknown variables.

I love and appreciate your answer. Let's hope Trump is successful for the benefit of humanity ??

[purerogue]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

I already said that Obama was called the deporter in chief and that he bombed a bunch of civilians in Yemen. I'm no Obama apologist. If your defense of Trump's policy is "So what... a liberal did it too." then that's a piss-poor defense.

The fact of the matter is that it's wrong to separate children from their parents at the border. So, even if they moved them to better facilities later on, it still is a very traumatic experience for them. Also, several children have died since being taken into custody. So, I'm very suspicious about the conditions they are living in. 

Stop apologizing for corrupt politicians. 

 

Yes and parents are not to blame at all, taking children in hundred mile journey,knowing that none might even let them in , in hell knows what conditions is all praised, oh poor parents, it must be rough for them, they are such angels. 

Lets blame president because he does not take all planet in your country just because they came to your border, I think it would be better for you to stay on your side of expertise and let people who can see further then "we must help everything that moves" do their job, at least try to do it . 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by purerogue

[tenta]

23 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

He must suffer a lot.

 

Actually no, that's just an assumption.

[tenta]

18 hours ago, Emerald said:

If you can say that from the perspective of a child living in a cage on the Mexican border who hasn't seen their parents in a year-and-a-half then more power to you.

But if you are unable to do that, then check your self-deception and spiritual bypassing. 

+1

[Aeris]

On 16/05/2019 at 9:05 AM, Rilles said:

So? Where did it ever say Democratic means Green? Democrats can be all kinds of stages. You can be a money hungry Orange Democrat too. Show me one real juice example of Trump being Green. 

Hitler was green

art + lazyness + living life

then met yellow people, then wanted to make the world a better place.

all the cons of coral in a single man, so "god powered" than he forgoted about the higher stage.

read his biography/real one

I don't know anything, I m just assuming from the ego talk perspective

Edited May 17, 2019 by Aeris

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, purerogue said:

Yes and parents are not to blame at all, taking children in hundred mile journey,knowing that none might even let them in , in hell knows what conditions is all praised, oh poor parents, it must be rough for them, they are such angels. 

Lets blame president because he does not take all planet in your country just because they came to your border, I think it would be better for you to stay on your side of expertise and let people who can see further then "we must help everything that moves" do their job, at least try to do it . 

 

Number one, the children didn't choose to go on the journey. And the parents (many of them seeking asylum) didn't know that they'd be separated from their children. Most come in seeking a better life. And it isn't even classified as a serious offense. So, it's cruel and unusual for that level of offense. Imagine taking children away from parents because the parent jaywalked.

So, it's a very cruel thing to separate children from their parents in that situation. Some of the kids were even toddlers and couldn't process what was going on. 

But you act like I'm advocating for open borders when I'm criticizing a very barbaric policy that's unnecessarily caused a lot of trauma.

So, don't behave as though this policy is just reflective of the president, border patrol, and ICE "doing their jobs". This is clearly over-reaching. 

We need common sense immigration policy. We don't need to inject cruelty or stupidity into the mix to get things done. 

 

[Aeris]

a quick death can be compassion.

in nature the more powerful ego eat the little.

if you start accepting all the misery in your ego bubble, then your ego bubble start to mix with the low consciousness ego, and everything start to be fucked up.

do you really believe we created internet and all powerful nations that allow you to think like this today through "love and no cruelty"

a quick death can be more loving than a life of slavery.

I would just told, if all the misery enter in a bubble that work ( maybe on stealing others but anyway ) a little bubble with highest ego could maybe one day create a better society.

but in the context, maybe being a selfish cu** and kill others ego is the best move.

people who are "social" and sharing for free, when it's their time to share their bed/home there is no one anymore to be grateful and compassionate when the fridge start to lack, that's how far it goes, as long as it doesn't fuck up your reality you'll for hipiness, but in reality we still need angry mad king to create a super states that would allow great thinker and then increase the world as a better place.

if americans and europeans start to be weak and sharing lover ( that I doubt tho ), what happen in the real is russian and china fuck us with their higher ego.

we are still not in a context where higher ego can sleep on what he get so far through war and contest

when there will be maybe no more country.

 whatever, Hitler from another perspective could have cured the world and bring peace over for 300 years by fighting the biggest ego that is american capitalism. 

nothing is easy in the context / pragmatical.

if you had two kill two childs with your bare hands to save 100 would you do it ?. no I m sure, your reality doesn't allow it, mine probably neither.

but we there is people that are doing those hard choices, hard choices that sometimes benefit ( or not ) for the "highest good"

I m just talking here, all of you can states all the opinion you want

Edited May 17, 2019 by Aeris

[Emerald]

19 minutes ago, Aeris said:

a quick death can be compassion.

in nature the more powerful ego eat the little.

if you start accepting all the misery in your ego bubble, then your ego bubble start to mix with the low consciousness ego, and everything start to be fucked up.

do you really believe we created internet and all powerful nations that allow you to think like this today through "love and no cruelty"

a quick death can be more loving than a life of slavery.

I would just told, if all the misery enter in a bubble that work ( maybe on stealing others but anyway ) a little bubble with highest ego could maybe one day create a better society.

but in the context, maybe being a selfish cu** and kill others ego is the best move.

people who are "social" and sharing for free, when it's their time to share their bed/home there is no one anymore to be grateful and compassionate when the fridge start to lack, that's how far it goes, as long as it doesn't fuck up your reality you'll for hipiness, but in reality we still need angry mad king to create a super states that would allow great thinker and then increase the world as a better place.

if americans and europeans start to be weak and sharing lover ( that I doubt tho ), what happen in the real is russian and china fuck us with their higher ego.

we are still not in a context where higher ego can sleep on what he get so far through war and contest

when there will be maybe no more country.

 whatever, Hitler from another perspective could have cured the world and bring peace over for 300 years by fighting the biggest ego that is american capitalism. 

nothing is easy in the context / pragmatical.

if you had two kill two childs with your bare hands to save 100 would you do it ?. no I m sure, your reality doesn't allow it, mine probably neither.

but we there is people that are doing those hard choices, hard choices that sometimes benefit ( or not ) for the "highest good"

I m just talking here, all of you can states all the opinion you want

Consider perhaps that murdering you might be for the greater good. Are you going to accept the workings of the universe and be as calm as you are and accept your fate with the level of detachment you have now if you're the one on the chopping block? My guess is, probably not. You would probably kick and beg and scream for mercy... as would I.

You have a vested interest emotionally in keeping yourself alive and free from pain and suffering just as all other beings do. And if you were really aware, you would also have a vested interest in reducing suffering for others as an extension of yourself without engaging in mental gymnastics by guessing at the long-term effects of a good deed versus a bad deed and engaging in apologism relative to corrupt and unethical behavior. 

With this logic, you might as well Greenlight genocide or cutting every 10th person's head off, because perhaps (maybe could be kind of) it eventually leads to a better future some time down the line.

Now, recognize that all the people who would suffer under this thought process are also yourself (because they are). Does it makes sense to you from that perspective to intellectually and spiritually bypass your natural human compassion and the obviousness of certain actions being harmonious and others more discordant. And to refrain from advocating for things that are obviously more conducive to well-being and against things that obviously cause sufferign.

So, we can apologize for all those that don't care and behave in Machiavellian ways and create suffering all we want on the basis that "perhaps they're contributing to the greater good in ways we don't recognize." And while this may be true, it's not a very good bet to make relative to our own behavior. And it's also not a good bet to make relative to what we should and shouldn't stand for in our society, as this has real consequences that effect primarily people who are more vulnerable than you are.

And if you end up on the chopping block, all that intellectual/spiritual bypassing you're engaged in won't mean diddly squat as you call out for mercy and some random person on the forum muses and armchair philosophizes about it being the best thing perhaps not to fight against it because maybe your death would save so many others.

It's very unwise to always reach for top shelf spiritual truths when approaching a situation on the relative level. So, we can't use the top-shelf spiritual truths like "Everything is perfect" and "We never actually know what's good or bad in the long run" and "There's no such thing as good and bad", to invalidate relative and practical truths like "Bad things are bad." and "Good things are good". 

 

 

 

[purerogue]

Problem is that you think running with open arms, holding love signature is best approach, I am sorry , you must live very comfortable life and have no clue what people you are dealing with. 

[Anderz]

Trump needs to be very tough. That's consistent with second tier in Spiral Dynamics. Or as Ken Wilber said, if people would have protested peacefully in the streets of Nazi Germany they would have been run over by tanks. So Trump needs to be tougher than the mob mosses, tougher than the military generals etc.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Anderz

[Aeris]

10 hours ago, Emerald said:

Consider perhaps that murdering you might be for the greater good. Are you going to accept the workings of the universe and be as calm as you are and accept your fate with the level of detachment you have now if you're the one on the chopping block? My guess is, probably not. You would probably kick and beg and scream for mercy... as would I.

You have a vested interest emotionally in keeping yourself alive and free from pain and suffering just as all other beings do. And if you were really aware, you would also have a vested interest in reducing suffering for others as an extension of yourself without engaging in mental gymnastics by guessing at the long-term effects of a good deed versus a bad deed and engaging in apologism relative to corrupt and unethical behavior. 

With this logic, you might as well Greenlight genocide or cutting every 10th person's head off, because perhaps (maybe could be kind of) it eventually leads to a better future some time down the line.

Now, recognize that all the people who would suffer under this thought process are also yourself (because they are). Does it makes sense to you from that perspective to intellectually and spiritually bypass your natural human compassion and the obviousness of certain actions being harmonious and others more discordant. And to refrain from advocating for things that are obviously more conducive to well-being and against things that obviously cause sufferign.

So, we can apologize for all those that don't care and behave in Machiavellian ways and create suffering all we want on the basis that "perhaps they're contributing to the greater good in ways we don't recognize." And while this may be true, it's not a very good bet to make relative to our own behavior. And it's also not a good bet to make relative to what we should and shouldn't stand for in our society, as this has real consequences that effect primarily people who are more vulnerable than you are.

And if you end up on the chopping block, all that intellectual/spiritual bypassing you're engaged in won't mean diddly squat as you call out for mercy and some random person on the forum muses and armchair philosophizes about it being the best thing perhaps not to fight against it because maybe your death would save so many others.

It's very unwise to always reach for top shelf spiritual truths when approaching a situation on the relative level. So, we can't use the top-shelf spiritual truths like "Everything is perfect" and "We never actually know what's good or bad in the long run" and "There's no such thing as good and bad", to invalidate relative and practical truths like "Bad things are bad." and "Good things are good". 

 

 

 

Yes.. 'What is dead may never die'

I had psychosis for months because of realizing and accepting death to the point of tears. I came back from the dead litteraly with joy but in the meantime a full acceptation of death at the soul lvl.

Maybe still my new reborn ego could cling to life. Anyway it takes work to desintegrate the ego to the point of not caring to be dead or alive.

I just hold and cling to reality like we cling to keeping a lucid dream going. Do things' love things' hate things.

What makes me love is curiosity. It's how I 'love'. Could be fun

My philosophy part of it is having experienced a close relation with death. And so knowing that all humans life is as good as the one of an ant.

Good system could work on wishful philosophy. Just not today 

My way to be honest is. When your computer crash. Love is knowing what is the thing to put in the trash for keeping the system work.

Keeping the system working is maybe true love. ( Imagine mother earth as the computer ) would you crash because you like to keep everything for a so call'd ( authentic love ) ?

I appreciate your vision tho. War is love litteraly.

But we should or could do war virtually indeed from my 'rational side of things'. 

War is just part of our ego core.

Maybe in the system you're a good loving and bounding cells. But some are with less mercy.

They all provide to the system their ways

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, purerogue said:

Problem is that you think running with open arms, holding love signature is best approach, I am sorry , you must live very comfortable life and have no clue what people you are dealing with. 

Again. You are straw manning me. I said that I support common sense immigration policy, yet you act as though I'm all pie in the sky and advocating for open borders with no regulations. At this juncture in history, we still need these delineations for practical purposes.

The problem is when people dehumanize others simply because they come from a place on the opposite side of those imaginary lines. Instead of simply thinking of the border as a practical delineation for immigration regulation, they think of it as some existential line carved by God himself that delineates the desirables from the undesirables. And this attitude is clearly reflected in the Trump administration's treatment of immigration policy, including but not limited to the policy of separating children from their families at the border.

But yes. Leading with love and compassion is going to be the best solution in any case. And I say so, not from a place of naivete but from a place of having experienced struggle. It's often easiest to judge what we don't understand from the outside. But if we've been down and out, we can start to relate to others who are also struggling as opposed to judging and demonizing them and superimposing the image of the criminal onto an entire group of men, women, and children. 

Now, there will always be criminals in every group. There is no getting around that. But the good news is that, among the immigrant population, they are statistically less likely to commit crimes than native born citizens. And this is specifically because they want to stay here and lay low. The last thing they want is the attention of police.

So, all the "they're bringing crime" talk is just using a falsehood and fear-mongering to justify shooting flies with a cannon and perpetuating cruel and dehumanizing treatment against immigrants. And it's also meant to make people react with fear and disgust and think of immigrants coming into the country like they're a bunch of criminals that are going to infest our country and ruin everything... And it appears that that rhetoric has worked on you.

 

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, Anderz said:

Trump needs to be very tough. That's consistent with second tier in Spiral Dynamics. Or as Ken Wilber said, if people would have protested peacefully in the streets of Nazi Germany they would have been run over by tanks. So Trump needs to be tougher than the mob mosses, tougher than the military generals etc.

This is just more mental gymnastics to blind yourself to what would otherwise be obvious.

Just start to notice who he's "tough" on and who he's "easy" on. And it will be really clear that there are no parallels in this analogy between Trump and a Nazi protester.

 

[purerogue]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

Again. You are straw manning me. I said that I support common sense immigration policy, yet you act as though I'm all pie in the sky and advocating for open borders with no regulations. At this juncture in history, we still need these delineations for practical purposes.

The problem is when people dehumanize others simply because they come from a place on the opposite side of those imaginary lines. Instead of simply thinking of the border as a practical delineation for immigration regulation, they think of it as some existential line carved by God himself that delineates the desirables from the undesirables. And this attitude is clearly reflected in the Trump administration's treatment of immigration policy, including but not limited to the policy of separating children from their families at the border.

But yes. Leading with love and compassion is going to be the best solution in any case. And I say so, not from a place of naivete but from a place of having experienced struggle. It's often easiest to judge what we don't understand from the outside. But if we've been down and out, we can start to relate to others who are also struggling as opposed to judging and demonizing them and superimposing the image of the criminal onto an entire group of men, women, and children. 

Now, there will always be criminals in every group. There is no getting around that. But the good news is that, among the immigrant population, they are statistically less likely to commit crimes than native born citizens. And this is specifically because they want to stay here and lay low. The last thing they want is the attention of police.

So, all the "they're bringing crime" talk is just using a falsehood and fear-mongering to justify shooting flies with a cannon and perpetuating cruel and dehumanizing treatment against immigrants. And it's also meant to make people react with fear and disgust and think of immigrants coming into the country like they're a bunch of criminals that are going to infest our country and ruin everything... And it appears that that rhetoric has worked on you.

 

In which part of my comment I said something about them  being criminals, you could say I am immigrant too, just not in USA, there is clearly difference from illegal immigration and legal one.

It is not for practical purpose, immigration has huge effect on well being  of people in country. 

Quote

Leading with love and compassion is going to be the best solution in any case

You can have any fancy feelings  you want, it has  to do with facing problems and having to take action, especially when it involves not just you. 

To point it out to you  , it has nothing to do with judging, it has to do with life, there are people who will spit on your love, use it.

 

I would like to end this discussion with you , it really is waste of time. please do not think that I am ignoring you if I do not replay, I just do not feel like it is worth having it. 

Edited May 18, 2019 by purerogue

[Anderz]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

This is just more mental gymnastics to blind yourself to what would otherwise be obvious.

Just start to notice who he's "tough" on and who he's "easy" on. And it will be really clear that there are no parallels in this analogy between Trump and a Nazi protester.

It's true that some leader in for example Red often also can be very tough. But I sense a difference in Trump who integrates being nice and being tough at the same time in an impressive way. Trump can for example say "I love China" and be tough towards China at the same time. To me that indicates second tier value system.