Donald Trump and Spiral Dynamics

[Emerald]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

My guess is that it insulates a person from the consequences of the political views they identify with. 

It was a rhetorical "I don't understand".  The reason why is because he's playing partisan politics with this issues by saying... "So... a liberal did it too."

But they're not connecting to the reality of the matter. They're just seeing it within the "left/right" dichotomy instead of the "benevolent/malevolent" dichotomy.

 

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

Exactly! If your work was being motivated by fear and guilt in the first place, how can you be happy?

I did not say the work was being motivated by fear or guilt. As long as I don’t think about it, no work even needs to be done!

By your logic, as long as I don’t think about world hunger it doesn’t exist. Why feel fear or guilt? I’m going to cure world hunger tonight by watching a movie and not thinking about it! All those starving kids in Africa can thank me later! I’m happy and all those kids have full bellies!! ? 

[Forestluv]

@Emerald  ??

[ValiantSalvatore]

I just saw a video of the trump administration wanting to put nuclear waste, on top ! or near a seismic active region. Not sure how this is dealt with globally.


@Anderz https://www.businessinsider.com/migrant-children-in-cages-2014-photos-explained-2018-5?r=US&IR=T

I heard this was a hot topic, yet if Trump uses the same tactic (sniff) it certainly is not an upgrade in policy and he builds a wall. There is so much talk, it would be nice if someone offers a solution, and not solely marketing campaigns and rhetoric to convince masses or use some form of domestic protectionism as a solution, not trade. 

I would love to see that people build more apprenticeships (in case that model even exists in America) in order to deal with mass immigration so they could benefit society, or other solutions working together with the country to boost the economy in that country, to reduce mass immigration. In the end, a state is also a slave to its economy and therefore companies,

When I see the refugees here in Germany, there are somehow always some non-profit organizations, caring for them often green and leftists people. Even if you don't hear it that much. Also, there are actually "lefties" here who are more for the labor union and the abolishment of classes in some latently existing way or support the working class through ... labor unions, free internet access, and more anti-capitalistic ideas, also violent ones. Also, a lot of younger people volunteer to help with the refugee crisis.

When I see America, I would never have that impression that younger people would care about social causes. Besides the environment, animal rights, abortion rights?, gender identity, and yes the justice democrats talking about stuff, like public health care, or Bernie Sanders for free tuition for college.

Anyway, I will follow the news and also, will read their election program, to see what the 2020 elections will be about.

[How to be wise]

@Serotoninluv Before action, you need to be aware of what is actually going on. I’m not telling anybody to stop acting, I just want them to see the truth. And the truth is that there are no starving African kids. Those kids only exist in your mind. They are the story of a past. 

So now that you have the facts down, what will you do now? That’s your choice. What makes you happy? Is it donating to some charity, or just sitting back and sipping beer? You decide on that. But don’t let your unquestioned thoughts take you out of your happiness. That’s all.

[ValiantSalvatore]

@How to be wise That is the same as feeling hungry, and denying that you are hungry. As if colonialism, has not had an impact on the present.

Edited May 17, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[Forestluv]

20 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

@Serotoninluv the truth is that there are no starving African kids. Those kids only exist in your mind. 

Great. So I just won’t think. That way all the pain and harm in the world won’t exist! I will live on my meditation cushion in a blissful refuge to escape the world. Previously, I used thought stories to escape and try to make myself feel better, yet this sounds sooo much better. Just don’t think and nothing will exist. I can escape into a blissful no-thought refuge in my world within a cave. 

 

Thoughts are the tip of the iceberg. It goes much much deeper. Reality isn’t dependent on thoughts. Thoughts are within reality. Spend an hour each day in a thoughtless state and see for yourself. 

[Emerald]

6 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

@Serotoninluv Before action, you need to be aware of what is actually going on. I’m not telling anybody to stop acting, I just want them to see the truth. And the truth is that there are no starving African kids. Those kids only exist in your mind. They are the story of a past. 

So now that you have the facts down, what will you do now? That’s your choice. What makes you happy? Is it donating to some charity, or just sitting back and sipping beer? You decide on that. But don’t let your unquestioned thoughts take you out of your happiness. That’s all.

Again... could you say that if YOU were currently a starving African child from where you are now consciously? If you were starving would you really be saying, "There is no me. So, there is no me staving."

If you couldn't feel that truth from the standpoint of being a starving child, then you're not actually in touch with the Truth yourself. Your mind just thinks it understands and congratulates itself on being the wiser one. And attaching to these truths in this way is just spiritual bypassing and using top shelf truths to gloss over relative truths. 

So, consider that you don't actually know what's true, and that you're just clinging to canned intellectualized spiritual insights that make the world seem less scary to you and to feel like you know and have more control and expertise.

And realize that bringing up higher truths in the midst of a lower truth conversation is an inappropriate paradigm to enter into... especially when there are real stakes on the relative level. 

 

 

 

[Anderz]

54 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Does that justify Trump’s practice of detaining immigrant children in cages?

Do you have any source that confirms that the Trump administration has kept children in cages? The article I linked to is about how the images of children in cages are from the time of the Obama administration.

[Anderz]

30 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

... and he builds a wall.

I have changed my mind about the Trump wall. At first I was totally against it and thought of it like a new Berlin wall, but then later I learned that there is a lot of human trafficking going on, really nasty business, and the Trump wall will be effective for dealing with organized crimes like that.

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Anderz It is good as a counteractive measure, yet it does not address the root cause of immigration, combining it with a measure which involves a more systemic approach by building a system which supports labourer, is way more intelligent then fencing off a close neighbor.

Human trafficking would not occur if there would be chances and opportunities in the country where people live, or it would be significantly diminished.

People could still use boats, there are people who smuggle cocaine with self-built submarines.

The point is an opinion is not a solution, and just fuels political discussion like now, still, the wall is not a solution it's just a preemptive measure to deal with a situation, not solve it and yes this is my opinion. I think it is unfortunate, that this is the only attempt that is public to solve this issue.

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Anderz It is a tactic or a strategy, not a system... and not even a holistic approach, in that manner it is partial. 

 

[How to be wise]

29 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Great. So I just won’t think. That way all the pain and harm in the world won’t exist! I will live on my meditation cushion in a blissful refuge to escape the world. Previously, I used thought stories to escape and try to make myself feel better, yet this sounds sooo much better. Just don’t think and nothing will exist. I can escape into a blissful no-thought refuge in my world within a cave. 

That probably won’t work. The mind will come whether or not you like it. The key is to unattach from those beliefs. If you unattach from them, then you won’t feel it’s affect. It will come and go like air. You will remain untouched. It requires some deep work, but definitely doable.

26 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Again... could you say that if YOU were currently a starving African child from where you are now consciously? If you were starving would you really be saying, "There is no me. So, there is no me staving."

If you couldn't feel that truth from the standpoint of being a starving child, then you're not actually in touch with the Truth yourself. Your mind just thinks it understands and congratulates itself on being the wiser one. And attaching to these truths in this way is just spiritual bypassing and using top shelf truths to gloss over relative truths. 

So, consider that you don't actually know what's true, and that you're just clinging to canned intellectualized spiritual insights that make the world seem less scary to you and to feel like you know and have more control and expertise.

And realize that bringing up higher truths in the midst of a lower truth conversation is an inappropriate paradigm to enter into... especially when there are real stakes on the relative level. 

 

 

 

I’m partly there already. I’ve been working on the awareness of this truth for two years now. The fact that there are no starving African children is from my direct experience, I’m not pulling this out of any book.

As for when you’re starving, I’ve largely removed the suffering from it. I have some of it left, because my work isn’t done. But I will definitely get there. Starvation isn’t real. It’s created by mind.

[Forestluv]

@How to be wise You are missing points that Emerald, Leo and I have been trying to show you - that you have an immature understanding of absolute and relative. Absolute is not the cessation of thoughts and the disappearance of relative.

Reduced thinking will likely help to relax one’s own mind-body. Yet even without thoughts, there is still existence. Thoughts are the tip of the iceberg. Spend some time in thoughtless mind states and see for yourself how much existence there is. 

[ValiantSalvatore]

@How to be wise Well...if you look at it from that viewpoint. Then sure you could be right. https://www.nbcnews.com/healthmain/70-years-without-eating-starving-yogi-says-its-true-1C9926692. Yet, this is highly unlikely that you can pull it off, do you fast or train to even try something like that. Or is all of this talk to not deal with social issues. I can also say that African Children from my direct experience are not starving since I never meet someone who is starving or from Africa who is starving. So, in my direct experience, there are no children who are starving, which does not mean people do not starve. 

How do you come to that conclusion that people do not starve if I make an abstraction out of the concept of African people not starving? I can claim the same starvation isn't real and die in a given time, if I don't eat. I am a bit appalled by your perspective. I don't get why one would be so ignorant "apparently".

12 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

I’m partly there already. I’ve been working on the awareness of this truth for two years now. The fact that there are no starving African children is from my direct experience, I’m not pulling this out of any book.

As for when you’re starving, I’ve largely removed the suffering from it. I have some of it left, because my work isn’t done. But I will definitely get there. Starvation isn’t real. It’s created by mind.

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[Anderz]

47 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

Human trafficking would not occur if there would be chances and opportunities in the country where people live, or it would be significantly diminished.

I don't know. I heard that there is really horrible human trafficking going on with thousands and thousands of children gone missing each year ending up in child sex rings where they only last around 2 years and then die. Something like that.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Anderz

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Anderz If the wall is the cause, then you could see if it ends,if you break down the wall. 

The demand is still there with the wall. 

The root cause would be lack of proper immigration and security of jobs within ones own country. 

Like why would I change a country if my country provides me with good living conditions,jobs food housing etc. 

The same with sex slaves here because prostitution is legal. So, cops have to investigate and prevent, total corruption. 

Anyway, I was hoping for an idea to discuss otherwise this is just entertainment or a good conversation. I am still open, but gone for now. 

 

 

[Anderz]

21 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

The demand is still there with the wall. 

I haven't researched it yet, but I think that the Trump wall is also for human trafficking going in the other direction; from the U.S. and via the Mexican border and out into the world.

"According to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, roughly 800,000 children are reported missing each year in the United States -- that's roughly 2,000 per day." - https://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-children-america-unsolved-cases/story?id=19126967

[Joseph Maynor]

Stage Red vs. Stage Blue

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Anderz said:

Do you have any source that confirms that the Trump administration has kept children in cages? The article I linked to is about how the images of children in cages are from the time of the Obama administration.

This is well-known that the Trump administration separated children from their families and kept them detained in enclosures that are basically larger dog kennels. 

Here is a video...