Donald Trump and Spiral Dynamics

[Anderz]

Where in Spiral Dynamics does Trump belong? The Democrats are basically at the green value system. Trump represents red, blue and orange. But he belongs to more than that. How can he make deals with North Korea's dictator and get away with it? The answer I think is because Trump is also at the integral second tier levels.

Trump is making and aiming for win-win deals. That's a second tier trait, let's say at yellow. The same with his previous support of the Democrats and ability to get along with people across the whole spectrum, from Oprah Winfrey to Sean Hannity (well, that's maybe not the best examples but you get the point).

At the same time Trump is seemingly very confrontational. That would be a first tier trait unless as I believe he is doing it with a deliberate intention in a strategy of transcend and include everybody, not only for the U.S. but also globally, so it's a turquoise trait!

Many people are still at the first tier and they only, to generalize it, understand conflict and zero-sum win-lose deals such as game theory. And Trump needs to communicate at that level and at the same time uphold a global scope win-win strategy which requires holistic thinking.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Anderz

[Leo Gura]

No! Trump is nowhere near Yellow.

Trump hasn't read a single book in his life! Lol

Do not confuse his BS "deals" for real deals. It's all posturing and fakery. There is no deal with North Korea. North Korea is playing him and they will never denuclearize. The reason Trump gets along well with dictators is because that's the level of consciousness he's at (Red). It's easier for him to get along with Kim or Putin than with a European Green leader.

If Hitler or Stalin were alive, Trump would probably get along well with them.

Stop rationalizing Trump's actions as somehow strategic brilliance or 3-dimensional chess. It's is pure ego and opportunism. Like a hyena. Trump is playing checkers while Kim and Putin are playing 3D chess. The North Koreans are very savvy players. And the Russians even more so.

[Anderz]

We will see. The North Korea deal is actually amazing and if Trump pulls it off it kind of proves my point. Also, Horowitz will soon deliver his FISA report which I predict will blame the Democrats and show that Trump is innocent. Trump already has the 2020 election in the bag as I see it.

[Leo Gura]

@Anderz Your ego's biases are clouding your vision.

Raise your level of consciousness and the whole situation will look very differently.

Trump will not pull off a North Korea deal. He does not know how to make deals.

[Rilles]

Trump has never gone through stage Green so him being Yellow is preposterous. Atleast Obama had a picture of himself smoking a joint in a strawhat. 

[Anderz]

21 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Trump has never gone through stage Green so him being Yellow is preposterous. Atleast Obama had a picture of himself smoking a joint in a strawhat. 

"In August 2001, Trump changed his party affiliation to Democratic." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Donald_Trump

[Rilles]

2 minutes ago, Anderz said:

"In August 2001, Trump changed his party affiliation to Democratic." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Donald_Trump

So? Where did it ever say Democratic means Green? Democrats can be all kinds of stages. You can be a money hungry Orange Democrat too. Show me one real juice example of Trump being Green. 

[Anderz]

"MSNBC host Joe Scarboroughsaid Trump is essentially more like a "centrist Democrat" on social issues.[53]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Donald_Trump#As_described_by_others

A centrist Democrat, I don't think one can get more green than that. More seriously though the Democrats are generally more green than the Republicans.

[Dan502]

Fast food, environmental apathy, economic protectionism, nationalism, racism, bragging, lying, neglecting his body.

He don't look too second tier to me.

 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

@Anderz Like I said, Trump is an opportunist. He has no principles or political ideas. All he cares about is narcissism and personal success and glory.

He would call himself a communist if that allowed him to advance his narcissistic agenda. You misunderstand his motives. In his mind whatever gets him the most power, money, fame, and sex is what's considered true and valid.

[Geromekevin]

@Anderz "People don't believe what they see, they see what they believe." - Mark Hymen.

Just like you can't expect any Republican to change his mind by learning new facts, don't expect any one else to change theirs. If Trump denuclearizes North Korea neither Leo nor any other person who is deeply buried by his opinion will change his / their view.

A great example is the "Fine People Funnel" by Scott Adams. (Try reading that article if you think Trump is a racist. It will be impossible for you.) People don't change their mind based on facts.

So many people thought Trump would crash the economy. He didn't it is booming. People thought he'd became a dictator. He didn't. The list goes on.
But again, this is on both sides. Some republican's thought Obama would become a dictator and never leave office.

[tenta]

13 hours ago, Anderz said:

How can he make deals with North Korea's dictator and get away with it? The answer I think is because Trump is also at the integral second tier levels.

Nope, and it's not the fact that Trump is just appealing to selfish desires so he can fulfill his own selfish desires, which stage orange does so you aren't yellow at all if you do it, it's the fact that Trump has EXACTLY the same reaction to millions of north koreans suffering under a ridiculous dictatorship as Kim Jong Un, he isn't doing a thing to stop it and no progress whatsoever has been made with north korea since it's still a dictatorship and it's citizens are suffering just as much. Making deals that literally allow a dictatorship to survive further is exactly what a pure below-green person does.

Edited May 16, 2019 by tenta

[Hellspeed]

Trump is Coral. He wears pink t-shits 

[Inliytened1]

@Leo Gura @Anderz Trump is probably the most asleep person on this planet.  He must suffer a lot.

[Rilles]

1 hour ago, Geromekevin said:

@Anderz "People don't believe what they see, they see what they believe." - Mark Hymen.

Just like you can't expect any Republican to change his mind by learning new facts, don't expect any one else to change theirs. If Trump denuclearizes North Korea neither Leo nor any other person who is deeply buried by his opinion will change his / their view.

A great example is the "Fine People Funnel" by Scott Adams. (Try reading that article if you think Trump is a racist. It will be impossible for you.) People don't change their mind based on facts.

So many people thought Trump would crash the economy. He didn't it is booming. People thought he'd became a dictator. He didn't. The list goes on.
But again, this is on both sides. Some republican's thought Obama would become a dictator and never leave office.

I dont have anything personal against Trump but hes not Yellow, thats all. 

[Arcangelo]

@Anderz = troll

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Geromekevin said:

Just like you can't expect any Republican to change his mind by learning new facts, don't expect any one else to change theirs. If Trump denuclearizes North Korea neither Leo nor any other person who is deeply buried by his opinion will change his / their view.

Don't confuse my degree of openmindedness and self-reflection with that of Republican.

I have no problem re-evaluating my positions and changing them. I've changed my positions and worldview more than you can imagine.

If Trump denuclearizes North Korea, I will acknowledge it and my understanding of him will change. I will have to admit that I underestimated him.

But I wouldn't bet on that happening. There's higher odds of him starting WWIII.

There is no way North Korea will give up its nukes given the US's penchant for regime change. Kim would be suicidal to do so. If he gives up his nukes the US will want to bomb and overthrow him like in Iran, Iraq, and Libya.

Think about it, if you were a dictator and you had nukes, why would you ever give them up? Having them means you will never get invaded. The US cannot invade North Korea because they would nuke South Korea. So counter-intuitively those nukes are maintaining peace.

North Korea having nukes is not as big a problem as people make it out to be. They would never use them aggressively because they know it would be suicidal. If North Korea ever used a nuke first, they would be nuked by the US until there was nothing left of North Korea. And they know this. North Korean nukes cannot even reach most of the US. So they are severely overpowered by the US. So all that having a few nukes does for North Korea is provide a nice obstacle to US invasion.

The irony is that the US is the aggressor, not North Korea. North Korea is practicing self-defense. Which is totally expected. What else can they do? They have to maintain their regime as any ego would do.

I'm always open to being proven wrong. The above position is not ideological dogma. It's just my best analysis of the situation. Of course my analysis can be disproven in the future. You can't do better than your best analysis at any given point in time. Political analysis is never Absolute, it's probabilistic given so many unknown variables.

[Arthur]

The situation is only getting worse as the US ( with Trump ) advances its geopolitical game. Seems like the 'Iraq war' scenario is unfolding again, this time with Iran.

 

[Leo Gura]

Ego and militancy go hand in hand.

The biggest egos cause the most violence, suffering, and death.

Because ego is always in fear it must lash out at others. Ego is fundamentally insecure about itself. And Trump is the most insecure president we've ever had. So it's bound to manifest in ugly ways.

Enemies only exist from an ego's POV. A conscious person has no enemies.

[Emerald]

18 hours ago, Anderz said:

Where in Spiral Dynamics does Trump belong? The Democrats are basically at the green value system. Trump represents red, blue and orange. But he belongs to more than that. How can he make deals with North Korea's dictator and get away with it? The answer I think is because Trump is also at the integral second tier levels.

Trump is making and aiming for win-win deals. That's a second tier trait, let's say at yellow. The same with his previous support of the Democrats and ability to get along with people across the whole spectrum, from Oprah Winfrey to Sean Hannity (well, that's maybe not the best examples but you get the point).

At the same time Trump is seemingly very confrontational. That would be a first tier trait unless as I believe he is doing it with a deliberate intention in a strategy of transcend and include everybody, not only for the U.S. but also globally, so it's a turquoise trait!

Many people are still at the first tier and they only, to generalize it, understand conflict and zero-sum win-lose deals such as game theory. And Trump needs to communicate at that level and at the same time uphold a global scope win-win strategy which requires holistic thinking.

Consider this... Why on Earth would North Korea denuclearize when America is staging so many regime change wars in so many countries? In order for Trump's negotiations to work out, Kim Jung Un would have to genuinely believe that Trump wouldn't stage a coup on North Korea after they relinquish their weapons... in the face of the Trump administration's new efforts to stage a coup is Venezuela and continued occupations/regime changes in so many other countries.

So, why would a small country, relinquish its only major weapon when negotiating with Trump? Would that be a good idea for them to do? I think not.

Diplomacy is a good idea, and certainly it's better to practice diplomacy than war with NK. But in order to properly practice diplomacy the other countrys' leaders would actually have to trust America and the Trump administration. 

The U.S. supports over 70% of the world's dictatorships and even supplies weapons to some of them.  So, if Trump is trying to get NK to denuclearize, the certainly it will make KJU suspicious as to what his motives are. 

But if his desires for denuclearize and diplomacy are genuine, then he's definitely not thinking it through properly. Not exactly a Spiral Dynamics wizard thing to do...