Do men really have a greater potential for leadership than women?

[Hardkill]

Guys, another thing that's been nagging me lately has been this idea of whether or not men really are better leaders than women. I know that dating and PUA experts and many mental health experts have mentioned a number of times that being masculine means being a leader among men and women, while being feminine means being a follower or being submissive. Also, we know that most of the well-known leaders throughout all of history have been men largely because women have never been given a 100% equal opportunity for leadership. They also say that men are better at leading than women are, even with regard to being on one's purpose, professionally and financially.

However, it is actually true that many of the greatest leaders throughout history have been women including Queen Elizabeth, Queen Victoria, Cleopatra, Hatshepsut, Joan of Arc, Mary Wollstonecraft, Indira Ghandi, Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Oprah Winfrey, Anna Wintour, Hillary Clinton, etc. Additionally, most of the worst leaders of all time have been men. So, do men really have a greater talent than women for leading people?

Edited May 14, 2019 by Hardkill

[outlandish]

I actually think women are better suited to leadership than men. 

This is difficult terrain because it's inevitable to step on toes and make some possibly hurtful stereotypes.

• Many men tend to be more specialists, women seem to be better as generalists. A good leader needs to be able to see the big picture, and know which specialists to delegate to.
• Men are often driven by ego and achievement. Women often behave as if they have less to prove. A good leader needs to be able to put their ego to the side and operate in the interest of the project/company/nation. This ego drive is what often compels men to get into the top leadership roles instead of women, but ironically I think it can be counterproductive
• Men are often concerned with "things", women with "people". Good leaders need to be extremely socially intelligent, something women tend often to be more endowed with than men.

OTOH men have more warrior/fighter instinct, so in arenas like war, extremely cutthroat industries, life and death project, maybe men are more suited for leadership.

I feel like as we enter into more and more peace, and women become more and more empowered, that the world will benefit from having at least a greater balance of women in positions of leadership.

[Shin]

3 minutes ago, outlandish said:

I actually think women are better suited to leadership than men. 

This is difficult terrain because it's inevitable to step on toes and make some possibly hurtful stereotypes.

• Many men tend to be more specialists, women seem to be better as generalists. A good leader needs to be able to see the big picture, and know which specialists to delegate to.
• Men are often driven by ego and achievement. Women often behave as if they have less to prove. A good leader needs to be able to put their ego to the side and operate in the interest of the project/company/nation. This ego drive is what often compels men to get into the top leadership roles instead of women, but ironically I think it can be counterproductive
• Men are often concerned with "things", women with "people". Good leaders need to be extremely socially intelligent, something women tend often to be more endowed with than men.

OTOH men have more warrior/fighter instinct, so in arenas like war, extremely cutthroat industries, life and death project, maybe men are more suited for leadership.

I feel like as we enter into more and more peace, and women become more and more empowered, that the world will benefit from having at least a greater balance of women in positions of leadership.

That's why the best leaders in history were god-realized, or extremely empathic and loving  

That's also why they get shot or poisoned very quickly though

[Hellspeed]

Yes, is nature.

[Yellow_Girl]

Ha ha. This discussion cracked me up!

The answer is "it depends."

Why generalize? Why put people into categories? 

Also, you can never answer this question because any answer would transform into a "belief" and no beliefs are correct, they are only future predictions of outcomes and can only be validated when the outcome comes to pass. But because outcomes are also subjective, they still cannot be evaluated objectively unless the outcome was binary or math-based.

Keep working on personal development and historical learning and reading other points of view until you realize the above. Maybe take a humanities course at the school.

Also, I really hate masculine and feminine teachings because they just slap words on people and call it a real description. It isn't. The answer is "it depends."

[outlandish]

Dammit we're trying to talk in stereotypes here, and you come in @Yellow_Girl tryna tell us that everyone's different?! 

You're right, of course... 

 

[Leo Gura]

The whole question is predicated upon gross generalizations.

Remember, the quality of your questions determines the quality of your answers and your life.

[lmfao]

@Hardkill I mean it depends on what the leader's role is, what their responsibility to their group is and what their social position represents. 

The leader of an aggressive group of teenagers who are disobedient? A strong masculine fist is the only thing to keep that in line. For basically any other role I don't think it matters, since not all leaders need to scare the shit out of their followers and threaten them with violence. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by lmfao

[Shadowraix]

I think many masculine traits makes it easier for many men to gain a following into leadership. But getting that is only a part of the story. Actually listening about issues, to your followers I would consider more feminine and is a huge necessity. 

A good leader will have both sides balanced. 

[ajasatya]

@Hardkill how do you think your question would be answered? data? interviews? hypothesis tests?

what metrics would you use? how would you define a "good leader" numerically?

before sticking to a question, i suggest that you ask yourself how would a good answer look like.
keep in mind that deductive answers rarely work in reality. if you're not playing with abstract logical environments, you will need data to support your theses.

[Hardkill]

6 hours ago, ajasatya said:

@Hardkill how do you think your question would be answered? data? interviews? hypothesis tests?

what metrics would you use? how would you define a "good leader" numerically?

before sticking to a question, i suggest that you ask yourself how would a good answer look like.
keep in mind that deductive answers rarely work in reality. if you're not playing with abstract logical environments, you will need data to support your theses.

Well, I thought that looking back in all of history throughout the world would demonstrate which ones have been the most effective leaders throughout all of time. 

Also, why do we still associate the word masculinity with a certain set of traits and associate the term femininity with another certain set of traits?

 

[Hardkill]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The whole question is predicated upon gross generalizations.

Remember, the quality of your questions determines the quality of your answers and your life.

Believe me, I've been trying my best to ask what I truly believe are the best questions to ask. It's very frustrating. I don't know what else to do about it.

[ajasatya]

8 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

looking back in all of history throughout the world

this is an impossible task. how can you make sure you're not cherry picking your samples and introducing HUGE biases in your study?

studying controlled data is already complex enough. have you ever seen how a serious statistical social research is made?

Edited May 17, 2019 by ajasatya

[ajasatya]

12 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Believe me, I've been trying my best to ask what I truly believe are the best questions to ask. It's very frustrating. I don't know what else to do about it.

here's a good start: question your values and beliefs. set them on fire and see what survives.

what is the kind of life that you want for yourself? do you care about being a good example to society? what are the main characteristics of a great human being?

[Hardkill]

12 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

this is an impossible task. how can you make sure you're not cherry picking your samples and introducing HUGE biases in your study?

studying controlled data is already complex enough. have you ever seen how a serious statistical social research is made?

No, I haven't seen one of those.

Man, I feel lost and still don't know who I am and why I am here in this society as a man.

[ajasatya]

5 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Man, I feel lost and still don't know who I am and why I am here in this society as a man.

i do not consider myself a reader of the bible, but the bible does present beautiful stories of good men with peaceful souls.

warning: i am presenting my own view of a beautiful life for a man. this is just food for thought for you.

for me, a beautiful life for a man is quite simple if seen from the outside, but it's very deep if seen from the inside. if you focus on being a good husband, a good father, a good professional and a good friend, you're already doing better than 99.9999999% of men on this planet at the moment.

what does "good" mean? i see "good" as a combination of immortal values such as justice, patience, courage, willpower, hard work, compassion, tenderness, temperance and purity of heart.

being genuinely good requires a huge layer of foundations, which is severely overlooked by the average joe. don't be the average joe living an unfulfilling life... study every aspect of your language and imagination. and ask for wisdom from the bottom of your heart everyday. ask for wisdom with your entire soul.

[Emerald]

On 5/14/2019 at 3:12 PM, Hardkill said:

Guys, another thing that's been nagging me lately has been this idea of whether or not men really are better leaders than women. I know that dating and PUA experts and many mental health experts have mentioned a number of times that being masculine means being a leader among men and women, while being feminine means being a follower or being submissive. Also, we know that most of the well-known leaders throughout all of history have been men largely because women have never been given a 100% equal opportunity for leadership. They also say that men are better at leading than women are, even with regard to being on one's purpose, professionally and financially.

However, it is actually true that many of the greatest leaders throughout history have been women including Queen Elizabeth, Queen Victoria, Cleopatra, Hatshepsut, Joan of Arc, Mary Wollstonecraft, Indira Ghandi, Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Oprah Winfrey, Anna Wintour, Hillary Clinton, etc. Additionally, most of the worst leaders of all time have been men. So, do men really have a greater talent than women for leading people?

Let's get more at the core of why you're asking as opposed to what you're asking because that's a lot more important. I feel the reason why you ask is because you are insecure about some possibility relative to your inquiry. So, you're looking for confirmation of a certain outcome, and to avoid another outcome that you're afraid of. And this can be sliced in several directions. So, ask yourself these questions...

• What would it mean to you if you empirically discovered that men were definitively better leaders than women, in an undisputed way? How would that make you feel?
• What would it mean to you if you empirically discovered that women were definitively better leaders than men, in an undisputed way? How would that make you feel?
• What would it mean to you if there were a 50/50 split in leadership potential between men and women? How would that make you feel?
• What would it mean to you if there were no definitive answer to that questions? How would it make you feel?

Look for the which of these possibilities above that temporarily relieve your anxiety/insecurity, and look for the possibilities above that cause you anxiety and amplify insecurities you have.

Some potential feelings that I could imagine from a male standpoint are these...

1. You feel anxiety at the idea that men being inherently better leaders than women because you've had a modern/feminist viewpoint and this if option number one were true, it would call those ideas into question causing you a lot of cognitive dissonance. It would also potentially make you feel like you need to conform more to the traditional masculine role to be accepted, which may or may not resonate with you.
2. You have taken for granted your entire life that option number one is true and that men are indeed better leaders. But you are beginning to question and get insecure about that sense of male supremacy. So, any other option than option number one makes you question male surpremacy and your own value and position in the pecking order that you have in your mind relative to the value of men compared to women. Option number two is especially scary because it makes you feel like you're in the one-down position that you've assumed women were in. 
3. You want to be a leader yourself, and you'd like to fall back on your maleness as confirmation of your own capacity to lead to feel more self assured based in the folk wisdom that men are leaders. But your doubts about male supremacy relative to leadership is making you doubt your own capacity to lead, because your maleness is the only thing that makes you feel like you could/should lead others. So, this is fundamentally a feeling like you don't have anything to offer and maleness being the only asset you have toward leadership and being afraid of having that bargaining chip taken away because that's all you feel that you have.
4. You are swallowing all the internet manly man culture and trying to be more masculine to attract women and to feel more worthwhile and are trying to empower yourself through a fetishization of masculinity. And part of that fetishization of masculinity is to frame it as the ability to lead and dominate. And your doubts about your own masculinity and leadership potential are making you question what's actually true. Like do I have hidden leadership potential because I'm male that I just haven't realized yet? Or is this idea that men have more leadership potential actually false, and I don't actually have leadership potential? Am I just not a leader and I'm in the lower ranks of men? Or maybe women and men are equal and I don't have any advantage...
5. You don't want to be a leader. But you've heard that men who are worthwhile are inherent leaders. So, you feel a bit like you have to be a leader even though you don't really want to be or believe that you can be. So, you're looking for information about women being equal in leadership to men to debunk the idea that valuable men are leaders, so you don't have to potentially see confirmation as to your own lack of worth because you are not really a leader but you are male and feel the need to prove your worth in relation to these ideas of maleness that come from places like the manosphere and general folk ideas about what makes a man a man. 

These are just a few potentials that came to my mind in seeing your question and feeling the nervous energy of it.

If you want clarity and to resolve your insecurity, you must be brutally honest with yourself about how you feel about yourself, about leadership, about men, about women, about your beliefs about gender, etc.

When you're doing shadow work (which is what you need), you must not be politically correct with your own view of your internal landscape. You must look at what you actually believe and assume, even if it paints you in a light that you don't like to be seen in. And only then, can you unravel your insecurity about your maleness/masculinity and your ability to lead.

And ultimately, the point here is to eventually discover what you really want and why you want it?

 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Emerald

[Hardkill]

On 5/17/2019 at 1:38 PM, ajasatya said:

i do not consider myself a reader of the bible, but the bible does present beautiful stories of good men with peaceful souls.

warning: i am presenting my own view of a beautiful life for a man. this is just food for thought for you.

for me, a beautiful life for a man is quite simple if seen from the outside, but it's very deep if seen from the inside. if you focus on being a good husband, a good father, a good professional and a good friend, you're already doing better than 99.9999999% of men on this planet at the moment.

what does "good" mean? i see "good" as a combination of immortal values such as justice, patience, courage, willpower, hard work, compassion, tenderness, temperance and purity of heart.

being genuinely good requires a huge layer of foundations, which is severely overlooked by the average joe. don't be the average joe living an unfulfilling life... study every aspect of your language and imagination. and ask for wisdom from the bottom of your heart everyday. ask for wisdom with your entire soul.

Alright, I am back now after having been busy dealing with other stuff in life as well as being exhausted.

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for me, a beautiful life for a man is quite simple if seen from the outside, but it's very deep if seen from the inside. if you focus on being a good husband, a good father, a good professional and a good friend, you're already doing better than 99.9999999% of men on this planet at the moment.

Well, I of course believe that being a good husband, a good father, a good professional and a good friend are all good traits to have as a man. Some of them are perhaps even essential for all men to have. However, I am confused as to how having all of those good qualities as a man would mean that he is doing better than  99.9999999% of men on this planet at the moment. I mean don't most grown men throughout the world especially those within westernized societies have all those characteristics?

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what does "good" mean? i see "good" as a combination of immortal values such as justice, patience, courage, willpower, hard work, compassion, tenderness, temperance and purity of heart.

Yes, immortal values such as justice, patience, courage, willpower, hard work, compassion, tenderness, temperance and purity of heart are undoubtedly good and virtuous not just for all people to have. 

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being genuinely good requires a huge layer of foundations, which is severely overlooked by the average joe. don't be the average joe living an unfulfilling life... study every aspect of your language and imagination. and ask for wisdom from the bottom of your heart everyday. ask for wisdom with your entire soul.

I don't want to be an average joe who only has or had a mediocre life until the end of his days. I always ask a lot of questions everyday including relevant ones. That's one of the main reasons I know and understand a lot of things that most people don't know. However, one of the things that's always been the hardest for me is knowing what questions are good and useful versus bad and useless ones.

[ajasatya]

11 hours ago, Hardkill said:

I mean don't most grown men throughout the world especially those within westernized societies have all those characteristics?

Not in my perspective. But this is something for you to see with your eyes. It will become more clear when you get to know a lot of different families.

[flowboy]

On 5/14/2019 at 9:12 PM, Hardkill said:

So, do men really have a greater talent than women for leading people?

Why would you try to start such a pointless debate. What would any answer mean to you? It's more nuanced than that, so really there is no answer.

Men vs Women. Emacs vs Vim. Spaces vs tabs.

Simple people like to believe in simple truths.

Edited May 28, 2019 by flowboy