The Loneliness of Yellow Spiral Thinking

[Forestluv]

@Mu_ To elaborate on your point, sometimes a mind creates a problem it sees in another. So many times, people have created all sorts of “issues” about me and what I need to do to “work through” it. When I reply “no. . . actually I wasn’t abused by my father”. The other may respond “Well you must be ignorant and have repressed emotions about these abuse issues. You lack humility and courage to address these issues”. If someone treated me like that, I would wish them the best and remove myself from the conversation. . . Recently, some random person said I was suffering from untreated multiple personality disorder. When I tried to explain that I don’t have those symptoms, he replied that I was in denial and needed to have some humility to work through this and heal. I was like “uh ok, I wish you the best” and I moved on.

[ajasatya]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

If someone treated me like that, I would wish them the best and remove myself from the conversation.

i wouldn't 

people tend to take things very personally, which is something that i might have lost touch with. also, i think i'm out of shape to teach/help, since i've been working very hard on other aspects of Life.

anyway, this is a dead horse already. i promise that i'll be more gentle from now on. thanks @Mu_ and @Serotoninluv for your patience and efforts.

[DrewNows]

11 hours ago, ivory said:

I agree.

@ivory that’s why I love him ? 

Often the devil must play a part to insure growth 

 

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

i wouldn't 

It’s context. Please don’t take what I say out of context. I am saying when there is a misdiagnosis of a situation and the other person is trapped there story, then I would leave the conversation. For example, if I came looking for help about my runner’s knee pain and someone said the pain is due to repressed emotions from my childhood trauma and I lacked humility to look at this, I would wish them the best and move on to someone that understand what I was asking about. 

A mind often it assumes it can see a situation clearly and becomes attached/identified to the story it creates

[ajasatya]

@Serotoninluv i understood. and still, i wouldn't remove myself from the conversation (not really a conversation though... this is a forum thread). you can just ignore people.

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

@ivory that’s why I love him ? 

Often the devil must play a part to insure growth 

 

An accurate diagnosis is a critical skill as well and at the highest level involves multiple modes of being. If I tell an Olympic weightlifter is problem is he is too muscular and needs to lose 100 pounds so he is within is BMI, that is a misdiagnosis - it doesn’t matter how much I play devil with him. . . .Yet in other contexts with a clear vision, playing devil can be helpful. Seeing complex situations clearly takes a lot of maturity and skill.

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

@Serotoninluv i understood. and still, i wouldn't remove myself from the conversation (not really a conversation though... this is a forum thread). you can just ignore people.

There comes a time when it becomes a waste of time. If I wanted help with my knee pain and someone went on and on about how the pain is caused because my parents told me there was no Santa Claus to soon, it’s just a waste of time. It’s not going to help my knee. I would leave that conversation and go find a osteopath or physical therapist that has knowledge and wisdom regarding knee injuries and can help me. 

[DrewNows]

@Serotoninluv How could you not see inner work as beneficial and needed for the OP? She seems to have plenty of knowledge but lacks the wisdom to integrate her complex systems thinking in relation to others. Inner work is going to create peace and happiness, allowing for deeper connections  and new approaches for dealing with any perceived stage

[DrewNows]

7 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

An accurate diagnosis is a critical skill as well and at the highest level involves multiple modes of being. If I tell an Olympic weightlifter is problem is he is too muscular and needs to lose 100 pounds so he is within is BMI, that is a misdiagnosis - it doesn’t matter how much I play devil with him. . . .Yet in other contexts with a clear vision, playing devil can be helpful. Seeing complex situations clearly takes a lot of maturity and skill.

totally agree, leo seems to know when playing the devil is productive. maybe i misspoke in saying it's "often" necessary 

[ajasatya]

17 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

There comes a time when it becomes a waste of time.

and that's not my responsibility. everyone is here out of their own will and nobody here holds any kind of duty to solve things for others with efficiency or anything like that. if that's your responsibility (maybe because you embraced it or simply because you're a moderator), that's fine. but you can't expect random dudes like me to weave an "accurate diagnosis" 

you can intervene and say "hey, you, be more gentle" and i'll say "huh, sorry, won't happen again" (some forum guidelines mention this issue in a very subjective and subtle way). we will be playing our roles and that's fine. but if people need professional/efficient/accurate help, this is not the right place to seek (and the forum guidelines mention this issue in a crystal clear and objective way).

Edited May 14, 2019 by ajasatya

[Forestluv]

Just now, DrewNows said:

@Serotoninluv How could you not see inner work as beneficial and needed for the OP? She seems to have plenty of knowledge but lacks the wisdom to integrate her complex systems thinking in relation to others. Inner work is going to create peace and happiness, allowing for deeper connections  and new approaches for dealing with any perceived stage

“Inner work” is an extremely broad term. Yes, there is a form of inner work that is always beneficial. Here, I think there is an expansive area within Yellow to explore. Things like integrating Yellow level thinking and emotions to social dynamics. There is tons of fascinating things to explore here. Yet that doesn’t mean all “inner work” is appropriate. What if I told someone they need to do some Inner Work about the death of their dog as the source of their discomfort and they responded “I actually haven’t owned a dog”. And I responded, “well you must be ignorant about your dog’s death and are acting very defensively right now. You need to show humility to do Inner Work on it. . . . “. . . Of course not all situations are this black and white. I am presenting a strong duality here to make the contrast obvious. 

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

and that's not my responsibility. everyone is here out of their own will and nobody here holds any kind of duty to solve things for others with efficiency or anything like that. if that's your responsibility (maybe because you embraced it or simply because you're a moderator), that's fine. but you can't expect random dudes like me to weave an "accurate diagnosis" 

you can intervene and say "hey, you, be more gentle" and i'll say "huh, sorry, won't happen again". we will be playing our roles and that's fine. but if people need professional/efficient/accurate help, this is not the right place to seek.

That is not what I am trying to communicate. I am not talking about professional levels. It is much simpler than that. If someone asks for directions to New York and I try to give them directions to Yorkshire, it is a miscommunication. One could say “I am giving you tough love to Yorkshire. You are ignorant of Yorkshire and have repressed emotions regarding Yorkshire. You think you are above Yorkshire” etc. That is all a creation that arose from an underlying assumption that the person is looking for Yorkshire. One could spend years working toward Yorkshire and it won’t help them to reach New York. One doesn’t need to be a professional here.

[ajasatya]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

That is not what I am trying to communicate. I am not talking about professional levels. It is much simpler than that. If someone asks for directions to New York and I try to give them directions to Yorkshire. That is a miscommunication. One could say “I am giving you tough love to Yorkshire. You ignorant of Yorkshire and have repressed emotions regarding Yorkshire. You think you are above Yorkshire” etc. That is all a creation that arose from an underlying assumption that the person is looking for Yorkshire. One could spend years working toward Yorkshire and it won’t help them to reach New York. One doesn’t need to be a professional here.

in your little story, i was telling her "how i got to new york". but maybe we were starting from different places (and maybe not!).

[DrewNows]

@Serotoninluv It is completely natural for the mind to seek out more and more complex understandings and solutions to solve a perceived "high level" issue here but the thing with inner work is the specifics are always unique to the individual. Your example was hilarious but sort of confusing as i have never actually been trying to give advice, only pointing out the OP appears to hold beliefs she isn't aware of...as her new belief system is almost anti beliefs, getting caught in judgement 

[bejapuskas]

@Serotoninluv  So how do you prevent misdiagnosis? I often have a weird feeling about people (I often listen to my feeling and intuition, sometimes it goes really well, sometimes it sucks) and I don't know what it is. I had this feeling with Yellow girl as well. I don't know which of us is right or wrong, I don't care, I think she can learn from both, but how do I make it so that I don't actually underestimate the problem, without going too far? Is my question clear?  

[Forestluv]

28 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

@Serotoninluv It is completely natural for the mind to seek out more and more complex understandings and solutions to solve a perceived "high level" issue here but the thing with inner work is the specifics are always unique to the individual. Your example was hilarious but sort of confusing as i have never actually been trying to give advice, only pointing out the OP appears to hold beliefs she isn't aware of...as her new belief system is almost anti beliefs, getting caught in judgement 

I’m not talking about more analysis and and constructing more complex understanding. I agree that inner work is unique to an individual, yet empathic understanding can reduce the restriction of the uniqueness to the individual. 

If I wanted to learn to play the guitar and arrived to the first lesson and noticed a dog training session going on, it probably won’t be very helpful. They tell me “you need to do Inner Work with your relationship with your pet dog to form a deep connection with your dog”. That is all fine and dandy, yet I don’t even have a dog and I’m looking to learn to play the guitar. I would realize that I went to the wrong room, politely end the conversation and then continue to look for the guitar lesson room. If I go to the next room over and find the guitar master he might tell me “You need to do some Inner Work with your relationship to the guitar and limiting beliefs that you can’t play the guitar”. Now that Inner Work would be helpful. 

My comments were not directed at you. They were general, impersonal comments. 

What you raise about belief systems and anti-belief systems is interesting to me. It’s a form of a duality that is great for exploration. I will likely ponder that as the day goes on ? 

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

@Serotoninluv  So how do you prevent misdiagnosis? I often have a weird feeling about people (I often listen to my feeling and intuition, sometimes it goes really well, sometimes it sucks) and I don't know what it is. I had this feeling with Yellow girl as well. I don't know which of us is right or wrong, I don't care, I think she can learn from both, but how do I make it so that I don't actually underestimate the problem, without going too far? Is my question clear?  

I now see how the term “diagnosis” is not quite right since it seemed to stimulate a lot of intellect and analysis in others, which I am not referring to. Perhaps a better term would be “getting in tune with”. It’s much broader than an intellectual figuring it out, creating a story/problem and trying to fix it. A main orientation of the thinking mind is to create problems and solve them. This can be counter-productive in exploring deeper aspects of reality. 

You are bringing in aspects of body feelings, which is a source of wisdom. Observe it play out. 

[bejapuskas]

20 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I now see how the term “diagnosis” is not quite right since it seemed to stimulate a lot of intellect and analysis in others, which I am not referring to. Perhaps a better term would be “getting in tune with”. It’s much broader than an intellectual figuring it out, creating a story/problem and trying to fix it. A main orientation of the thinking mind is to create problems and solve them. This can be counter-productive in exploring deeper aspects of reality. 

You are bringing in aspects of body feelings, which is a source of wisdom. Observe it play out. 

Ok, I need to get better at knowing what these feelings mean...  And work harder.

[Forestluv]

6 hours ago, ajasatya said:

in your little story, i was telling her "how i got to new york".

That is an assumption that goes through a personal filter leading to a belief that one knows where she is, where she is trying to get to and what she needs to do to get there. My impression is she is in a very different place exploring a very different destination - as she clearly, genuinely and politely communicated - repeatedly. Yet once that filter is in place, such communication will be perceived as being in denial, closed-minded, lacking humility, unwilling to do the work etc. - this serves to maintain the filtered narrative.. . .These same dynamics occur in my mind, it is part of the human mind - experiences and thought stories are constructed into personalities within a timeline. When immersed into it, it is a filter and a mind is not free to listen to what another is trying to communicate. The mind will want to talk over what the other person is trying to communicate.

 I don’t suggest that “I’m” right and “you” are wrong. It’s a different perspective for a different context.

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

Ok, I need to get better at knowing what these feelings mean...  And work harder.

Trust your intuition ?