The Loneliness of Yellow Spiral Thinking

[Yellow_Girl]

Thank you for all the replies so far.

I'm going to go read Don Beck's book again. I believe I'm hitting a transformational dilemma. 

I am sad that we see the spiral as yet another way to form hierarchies and that expressing yellow is like telling someone you have a second home in the Hamptons. I have done a lot of work and these are conclusions I have come to, it is the way I see the world but I am looking for solutions to transcend this.

I did feel attacked and ridiculed on this board where I came for a discussion on the topic of issues with certain belief structures. I will keep looking for a place to be understood, or at least find comfort in not being understood.

Maybe this is impossible. Being human is hard.

Bye.

 

 

 

[bejapuskas]

11 minutes ago, Yellow_Girl said:

I did feel attacked and ridiculed on this board where I came for a discussion on the topic of issues with certain belief structures. I will keep looking for a place to be understood, or at least find comfort in not being understood.

This is exactly why you suffer. You are trying to reconstruct that, which is dysfunctional.

[ajasatya]

22 minutes ago, Yellow_Girl said:

I did feel attacked and ridiculed on this board where I came for a discussion on the topic of issues with certain belief structures. I will keep looking for a place to be understood, or at least find comfort in not being understood.

this is gold. not sure if you're going to read this, but you should investigate what part of you felt ridiculed and attacked. it's time for another part of the armor to go.

[Jj13]

My guess is that the answer to your dilemma is not a logical one. You are trapped in your conceptualizations. What @ajasatya is trying to say goes above your head the same way that what you try to say, goes above the heads of people around you.

Stop trying to think of an answer, read or study more. How you feel is a feeling, not a thought. Try shadow work, or psychoterapy. It's an emotional problem, not logical. Treat it that way. Find out how you feel deeply, and what causes that feeling on a much deeper, illogical, emotional level.

[Leo Gura]

@Yellow_Girl Sounds like you have yet to discover God and truly spiritual living.

Enough reading books! You must now actually do the inner work. Books are NOT inner work.

Try some psychedelics and go visit some spiritual communities. There are many spiritual communities around if you just search.

Yes, people get caught in their beliefs. But so do you. You're not out of the woods yet. Now you must move beyond the mind. Now the real work begins.

It is the nature of this work that few people will understand you. But you can make a handful of friends who will be at your level.

[Skanzi]

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- Are yellow ideals just another form of belief-centrism and should they, therefore, be hidden from the world? Should yellow communicate their point of view to others?

Yes. Yellow, in my experience, is not meant to take a fixed polarized standpoint. To my idea, it has the function to destroy beliefs, not to create new ones. If you go really deeply, you will always be able to find a counterargument for everything that you think is appropriate or right. Think of it in terms as to provide counterweight. Some people tend to be too far on the left side of the spectrum, show them a grounded, well-reasoned argument for the right side. If people are too far on the right side of the spectrum, do exactly the opposite. This is what you can provide. The power of yellow reasoning is that, in my experience, they can provide a counterargument in such a way that it will trigger less resistance of someone who has taken a polarized standpoint. If someone is deeply in orange, you first can acknowledge an express appreciation of the values of orange to them, but meanwhile you can also show its limitations, and give them grounded reasons as to why it might be worthy to explore values beyond their own paradigm (probably mostly green values). The art is using sensitivity and subtlety, being real careful as to not overly trigger their defense mechanisms beyond the point they are not ready to listen anymore.

Yellow ideals are meant to provide counterweight, but you are not meant to stay stuck there. As soon as the context changes, you change. This is the flexibility of yellow.

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- How does one build a social life around a community that is only interested in belief-mongering and flaunting orange status or blue and green virtues?

Play along with it, or don't play the game at all. Know that despite people having limitations and imperfections, you can still enjoy your time with other people. If you manage to not get triggered and play along with their values, or simply not react to them, it is certainly possible to develop an enjoyable relationship.

This isn't necessary though. Alternatively, you can accept your aloneness and try to create space for being contented with the fact that you are on your own. It isn't bad to be alone; it does not have to be the same as loneliness. But it requires a high degree of maturity to carry it. I'm not saying you necessarily need to be alone. Just don't cower in fear of it.

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- Is profound acceptance and tolerance of all belief systems enough to satisfy an evolutionary urge to connect with others given the fact that we sort according to interests and beliefs?

I have to be honest, I didn't quite catch the meaning of the question so well.

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- If we are all system drones, and free will is non-existent, how must we live with such knowledge?

How do you know free will is non-existent?

This concept of free will is one that is very... impragmatic. This is one of those situations were the mind gets itself entrenched in a philosophical matter which doesn't really have any true practical output as far as daily life is concerned.

I have once heard this quote: "Know that God has managed to create an existence which is perfect into the most intricate details, but live in this world as if you have a choice, as if you have a way to shape your own destiny".

Whether there is a free will or not I can not tell. Can you tell? Maybe the argument that "if every factor was known, we could predict everything that would ever happen unto the finest detail" holds some value. But maybe, existence decides to change itself as it goes. Or maybe, this concept of free will is something that is beyond the grasp of understanding for the human mind.

Drop this question. Alternatively, keep on diving deeper into this inquiry that the question will drop by itself, as it has no singular answer. For now I will tell you: there are moments to recall upon faith that you are being guided, and there are moments to recall upon your ability to shape your life by your own hands. Simply do what is appropriate for the moment, and drop the philosophy. This is the Turquoise attitude.

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- How can one love others and progress to turquoise if one feels so separate?

Be as you are. You don't feel loving? So be it. The way to progress to Turquoise, from my experience, is to give as much devotion to the modality you find yourself in at this particular moment. Don't try to be other than you are. Don't create a struggle between your conscious mind and your unconscious mind. This is the true root of suffering.

So if you want to question, if you want to inquire, if you want to philosophize, go deeper into it. Don't try to "be loving". Be as you are. Devote yourself to your yellow modality. The way to reach turquoise it to exhaust Yellow. I talk from my own experience. 

And how did I make the shift? i really didn't know how to do it either. I had no clue whatsoever and I was incredibly confused. At one point, I simply had no idea, no plans left anymore, but life continued regardless. At such a point, the only thing I could do was to act without knowing why, without knowing whether what I was doing was right or wrong, forwards or backwards... Diving into the absolute unknown was terrifying. But it had to be done. And this is the shift from yellow to turquoise: From thinking to acting. from trying to think about the right thing to do to just acting without knowing if it helps or hurts. You just walk.

Turquoise means to drop the mind, to drop the questioning, to drop the enquiry. You can not drop it by trying to drop it. You can only drop it after it's been exhausted. Perhaps it can be dropped by a great flash of awareness or satori which then remains, but my experience has been that I had to exhaust the yellow modality by going as deeply as possible in order to progress towards Turquoise.

Now that I'm more and more going into Turquoise (still early turquoise/late yellow), the more and more I notice that I simply make decisions without having really thought or pondered upon as to why I am doing it. I am not so afraid anymore as to do the "wrong thing". I have started to understand that peace is not about what is being done, but the relationship you have with yourself and your actions. you drop the judgement, and with dropping the judgement, you drop the fear that you might make a wrong step or a wrong turn. At this point, I've started to realize that there are no wrong turns to make, no wrong actions to be taken. All that is essential, is how my attitude is towards the situations at hand; not the situation itself. Do I take it lightly and gently, or is there a certain anxiety and heaviness surrounding it? Your attitude is all that's truly essential.

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- If one has a greater awareness of systems, how does one ethically use this? It feels a lot like manipulation.

Ethics is an idea. For everything that is regarded as "bad", something "good" or valuable can be found within it. Your mind is not decide what right or wrong is. And if you are manipulating, then simply be manipulating. I'm not going to moralize you here. A true sense of right or wrong comes from your consciousness, not from your mind. Don't be concerned about doing something wrong. Act as you see fit. There's nothing that can truly be done "wrong".

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- How does one feel grounded when one realizes there is no ground? Is grounding necessary? If all beliefs are suspect, then how can one progress through life with such knowledge?

Grounding happens when you are not being dragged along anymore by all the thoughts in the sky. And beliefs can never ground, because they are just clouds, they are just stories in your head. Truth however, certainly grounds. In fact, Truth itself is the ground.

"If all beliefs are suspect, then how can one progress through life with such knowledge".

Why do you need a belief to progress through life? Life is as it is; it does not need your belief. Animals don't bother about beliefs; they live their destiny without any objection. Same for plants. Same for all of life except human kind.

Maybe you wonder how you would make decisions when there are no beliefs left to hold onto anymore. Yellow may be puzzled about this, but Turquoise understands perfectly well. A lack of beliefs does not mean a lack of action. You simply now act from a different center. The head is not the center anymore; the head is not the centre of your decisions anymore. In Turquoise, you may feel inspired to act out decision A one day, and the next day you can act out decision B, which could be the exact opposite of A. Turquoise feels fully free to experiment with life, and it is not concerned about making a right or wrong choice. Turquoise has simply accepted himself as is. He does not need ethics, he does not need morality, he does not need guidelines, he does not need philosophies.

Don't you see? You can just be as you are, you can do whatever you feel like doing, and nothing else more is required! This is the secret that is hidden in plain sight. And the only reason you're not getting it is because you're too trapped in the whirlwind of your mind. But life is a great joke to those who are Turquoise and above, because they see that absolutely nothing is required to float on the river. the river takes care. Those who try to figure out how to float on the river and those who fight against it, they are the ones who drown in it. This is the irony of life.

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- How does one live in the material world when one feels how immaterial it all is?

I can not really provide a "how" to this question. It's hard to define the border between what's "material" and "immaterial" anyways. Why do you need an answer as to how to live in the material word? Live in the material, as you need to live in it for your survival, and at the same time be aware of the immaterial too. See if you can combine the two.

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These questions are on my mind almost constantly now. It's a lot of questions but I think it boils down to the idea that how can one exist in the matrix when one begins to see the code, and others do not seem to. I am not nieve enough to think I see the whole picture yet, by any means, but it's starting to reveal itself and I am terrified.

I'm only 38 and the thought of living another 40-50 years like this seems to be a painful lot. If only I'd learned this stuff later in life. 

 

Going backwards is never an option, remember that. Keep going forward, and keep your inquiry for Truth alive. Despite the fear, know that retaliating and cowering to life's challenges is only going to make things worse. Keep going forward, keep pushing it. There's no need to push it overly hard, but keep going forward. Do not retract into the known and the safe all too often. Know that the unknown is waiting for you, and know that you will need to therefore step into territory which you have never encountered. None of your old tools will help with this, because the new territory can only be charted once the new tools are created.

No, you don't have to live another 40-50 years like this. Not if your thirst is strong enough. Once you get older you wil start entering Turquoise territory. Then you will understand how to drop your complaints towards life, to drop your resistance towards life. Pain and discomfort will still come, but you will start to understand what it means to yield to those passing phenomena, and a certain degree of space between you and the pain will now start to emerge. There will be a certain distance, and you can allow yourself to simply yield to it instead to become it. It will be a different experience.

And when the complaint against life is dropped, life begins.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Skanzi

[Black Flag]

@Yellow_Girl Hello, thanks for sharing your view. I feel like I am in a very similar world view to you. I see all these interactions going on and I feel like I understand "why" they are taking place, using the models I have learnt (projecting onto the world - albeit useful). Although I've read significantly less than you haha!   

I think I understand that I am projecting these models onto the world - yet I still feel the need to explain to someone my viewpoint, the way I see the world. I get what you mean that there is no right or wrong, just more and less effective - that's literally how I see the world right now too! I often feel like I'm drowning in people who are so bought into their views. I often feel like an island. 

@ajasatya Why do I want to feel understood? 

1 hour ago, bejapuskas said:

@Yellow_Girl  Yellow is a made up thing, if spiral dynamics didnt exist, you would still suffer. 

 

...but how do I not suffer?! 

[Laurens]

If you see systemic manipulation of growth of lower stages, change it. You will need your yellow thinking to deconstruct it and you will build turquoise thinking to recreate. 

[DrewNows]

 

Your inability to meet people where they are at is what seems the be the issue. Nothing wrong with sharing your deeper perspective but don’t expect others to accept them. The only acceptance needed here is your own. 

There is no changing others so you might as well love them. If you understand where they are coming from then you too have been there. If others feel you completely accept them then they may actually be willing to ask themselves the right questions for their own growth but this isn’t a goal for you. You teach by example and support 

[ajasatya]

7 minutes ago, Black Flag said:

Why do I want to feel understood?

because you're still attached to beliefs. you want your beliefs to be your fortress.

sad/happy news: beliefs can't be your fortress! beliefs are just prior knowledge about the world without any fundamental truth to them. if you try to build your foundations on a set of beliefs, it will be like building a castle on the sand.

this is why you need validations for your beliefs. you're trying to feel safe while standing on a mental construction. don't build your foundations on thoughts. build your foundations on the present moment!

[Mezanti]

@ajasatya dude, stop being so goddamn skeptical of people all the time. Yellow_girl could have been a great person to have learned from on the forum, but now shes leaving

[Moreira]

The n1 rule of the actualized is: Dont talk about meta topics with family or friends or youll be labeled as the crazy/weirdo. they wont understand.

[RobertZ]

@Yellow_Girl Hi Yellow_Girl. It is a fantastic point about belief mongering. You say you cannot change the world—but I am sure you have already provided a tremendous amount of support to the people around you. You are already deeply connected with the people you have supported. 

Expressions of yellow are values. Values are hierarchies. In other words, if push comes to shove—you would choose one thing over another thing. It is not that you have beliefs—but you still have a way of thinking and acting. When people’s values do not align, intractable fights can occur. Proclaiming your understanding from the rooftops is probably not necessary—your perspectives should manifest themselves at critical junctures, naturally. The choices you would make might be different than those of the people around you—but you make those choices for other reasons.

The people around you will primarily see the fact you would make a different choice than them. Perhaps no one would seem to care if you say, ‘everyone here is making excellent points;’ or ‘you do not have to hate on that other group quite that much, do you?’ However, I think the people around you probably do care. I think they will remember your supportive approach, even if they think your good intentions are irredeemable. Also, people in your life might start speaking your language sooner rather than later—maybe even “out of the blue.”

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that both beliefs and conditional hospitality are hindering authentic interpersonal communication? You know other people, but they do not understand you. However—they do understand you--quite a bit, I am sure. You also understand yourself. And there is probably someone who ever lived who understood all this stuff.

For truth-mongers, I find that shared beliefs and doctrines can be quite flexible—the difficulty is when they apply inflexibly and without adequate perception (especially when it comes to biological needs for connection). On the other hand, tolerance and openness can be disconnected, self-destructive and even cannibalistic. Nevertheless, I am not sure that dialogue between beliefs and radical acceptance has always failed in the past. 

Take Hildegard von Bingen, for example. She was a Christian musician who lived together with some other women. She got indicted (~excommunicated) from the Catholic Church because of her defiance toward authority. About 500 years later, the church canonized her as a ‘doctor-saint.’ The fact that Hildegard was deeply into visionary plant-medicines (i.e., hallucinogenic drugs) was not problematic (talk to me about psychedelic drugs and the Catholic Church any day).

My theory is that dialogue between beliefs and consensus can emerge into a higher dynamic. I am sure this can be a demanding connection. However, it is a creative connection. We can all gain something from other people’s beliefs and feelings, probably. I am not suggesting that anyone become a Mormon again (unless they want to be—but I doubt if Mormons even have a conceptual role for defiant individuals). I mean, if the people expressing various value dynamics in your life could understand each other a bit more, you would probably feel a bit more connected also.

As a final example, I refer to Alexander Shulgin. He was a disciplined chemist who rediscovered and popularized MDMA. He was not born knowing how to make those squiggles on a chalkboard. However, he also experimented on himself! Rigid categories and happy-go-lucky rainbows mixed to make cuddle-puddles across the face of the globe. On MDMA, all truth-mongering goes out the window. People get clarity about what is transcendent in life—including their beauty and goodness. To each their own: ‘In with discipline; in with rules; in with openness;’ and ‘in with experimentation.’ 

I am sending you positive birthday energy. I hope that you find your connection soon!

[Mu_]

@ShinYa I agree with you on Aja’s comment 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Mu_

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, ajasatya said:

look, lack of humility also causes suffering. are you self-proclaiming yourself as yellow? yellow is a tier 2 stage, which means that one at yellow has fully grasped the necessity of different stages in everyone's life and in every culture out there.

if you're feeling lonely, then let go of the place you think you are and go back to the basics. talk to people, hug, make eye contact. tell someone that you feel lonely. human connection does not depend on "stages" or "beliefs". a silent and deep eye contact can break many barriers.

????

[Nivsch]

@Yellow_Girl but there is also premise 4 - you have to BE the previous stages and live and breath those stages too. And still every blue, orange and green person has something he knows that you dont. In other words - you have work to do in order to go turquoise. Maybe your best friend will be at yellow and above. Its ok. But you steel have a lot to learn from every stage especially in embracing every stage (healthy parts) through your LEGS (and not through mind) !!

Also send spiral dynamics to your friends and family.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Nivsch

[Bill W]

19 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

Ya I agree with you on Aja’s comment 

Hiya. Agree with who? And what comment are you referring to please?

[Mu_]

@ajasatya pretty much the most assholish series of responses I may of seen on here to a new authentic human looking to genuinely understand her current dilemma. 

I get that you believe your helping her with your beyond ego wisdom but I feel you totally didn’t see how none of what you said may of been useful to her from where she is at.

The whole exchange was just devoid of inquiry and interest in getting to know her more and see what she’s about and what may be useful to her. 

Her feelings of being hurt were met with a superiority by you and a few others that she’s just a flawed ego and some sternness in your part is going to show her how it’s her lack of development and understanding is the issue.  

This isn’t the first time I’ve seen you act this way either and while I’m not your teacher I do hope you reflect on it if your really interested in this ‘enlightenment’ thing. 

[Shin]

4 hours ago, Yellow_Girl said:

hug

I could be your son !

Behave !

?

[ajasatya]

@Mu_ yeap, it's very easy to choose sides here. very interesting to see how some people agree with me and some people do not. i'm fine with both.

even though i know that there is no such thing as "superiority" in reality (just in imagination), i was intentionally outputting a tone of fantasized superiority just so that she could see her own flaw in my words. sometimes it works right away, sometimes it doesn't. but i'm sure her experience here hit somewhere it should hit and she'll spend some time thinking about it. the memory may even haunt her for a while on her search for validation.

the internal journey is often unpleasant. sometimes we see things we didn't expect to see. sometimes it smells more than we think it would!

what she is seeking cannot be found anywhere else. it's not that people should understand her. it's not about finding a new system of beliefs. it's certainly not about building up her way to dissatisfaction and isolation by identifying herself with a "superior stage". peace of heart is rare because humility and self development are tricky/paradoxical.

love is not always soft and warm. the words of a true friend can hurt you in the first moment.

Edited May 13, 2019 by ajasatya