Meditation & Visualization Contradicts?

[ahmet sukru]

Hi,
I am meditating since (almost) 2 years and visualizing for a couple of months. I see both of them as beneficial.
But a thought is grinding in my head since I have a visualization habit which I do right after my meditation sessions.

When I meditate I expect to be:

   - Fully present, Not be in the past or the future
   - Not forcing my mind to do anything, no thoughts
   - Not trying to be something or someone, allowing to accept myself or whatever I feel about myself

But when I visualize I am:

    - Fully on the future
    - Forcing my mind to create a vision. thoughts are on
    - Trying to be something that I create on my mind which is basically not me right now

It seems like they are opposite kind of works to me. Sometimes I feel I am trying to do what I avoid on other one with my mind.
But the suprising thing to me is I see some people think they are "meditating" while they are actually "visualizing" (or manifesting)
Or they somehow combine them, even sell them or see them very closely.
What do you think about this issue?
Are they contradict with each other? or opposite?

Edited May 13, 2019 by ahmet sukru

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, ahmet sukru said:

But when I visualize I am:

    - Fully on the future

Are not those visions arising Now? ? 

To deconstruct the illusionary nature of the timeline, observe how it works. 

[ahmet sukru]

7 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Are not those visions arising Now? ? 

To deconstruct the illusionary nature of the timeline, observe how it works. 

Yes but all that overthinking is also arising now. So there must be a difference between meditation and just thinking stuff

[Shin]

23 minutes ago, ahmet sukru said:

Yes but all that overthinking is also arising now. So there must be a difference between meditation and just thinking stuff

Yes and no,

Being conscious while you think is meditation.

[iTommy]

9 hours ago, ahmet sukru said:

When I meditate I expect to be:

   - Fully present, Not be in the past or the future
   - Not forcing my mind to do anything, no thoughts
   - Not trying to be something or someone, allowing to accept myself or whatever I feel about myself
 

Those are quite the expectations you have there. I'd recommend you drop those, because if you really expect meditation to be like that, then you most likely become ridgid and frustrated when the opposite happens (and it will). Rather, see your expectations as something that may naturally occur, while having no set expectations.

9 hours ago, ahmet sukru said:

But when I visualize I am:

    - Fully on the future
    - Forcing my mind to create a vision. thoughts are on
    - Trying to be something that I create on my mind which is basically not me right now

It seems like they are opposite kind of works to me. Sometimes I feel I am trying to do what I avoid on other one with my mind.
But the suprising to me is I see some people think they are "meditating" while they are actually "visualizing" (or manifesting)
Or they somehow combine them, even sell them or see them very closely.
What do you think about this issue?
Are they contradict with each other? or opposite?

Visualizing can be a form of meditation, there are many, many meditation techniques. It's good to have multiple different meditation techniques in your meditation toolkit. I don't think visualizing a preferred future would contradict the type of meditation you're referring to. Both have a different purpose, and should work well combined. With one you're trying to quiet the mind, the other tries to impose/feel into, a preferred/self-actualized future. One hurdle here might be when you practise both types, the mind might try to visualize and think during your other meditation where you try to still the mind. The key here is to keep at it, regain your focus. The mind doesn't like to be tamed, yet eventually, this becomes easier and you'll have more control. 

[Forestluv]

6 hours ago, ahmet sukru said:

Yes but all that overthinking is also arising now. So there must be a difference between meditation and just thinking stuff

Do you think it’s possible to be in a meditative state while thought impulses are arising in the mind?

[ahmet sukru]

12 hours ago, iTommy said:

Those are quite the expectations you have there. I'd recommend you drop those, because if you really expect meditation to be like that, then you most likely become ridgid and frustrated when the opposite happens (and it will)

Yes I agree with you on that, but I couldn't find any other way to describe. 
Actually it is not what I expect from "during" a meditation session but from the meditation in a long run.
 

12 hours ago, iTommy said:

Both have a different purpose, and should work well combined. With one you're trying to quiet the mind, the other tries to impose/feel into, a preferred/self-actualized future.

Thank you for your beautiful explanation, but one more thing came to my mind:
What about the ego? Meditation surely dissolves your ego and your attachment to it,
But when you visualize about the things YOU want, (money, career whatever) wouldn't it feed your ego?
Maybe they both work together like "first dissolving your current ego and building another one which will be more useful"..
 
Btw, I don't discuss them as spiritual or metaphysical things, I wonder more about psychological side.

[ahmet sukru]

8 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Do you think it’s possible to be in a meditative state while thought impulses are arising in the mind?

I think Shin answered this:
 

14 hours ago, Shin said:

Yes and no,

Being conscious while you think is meditation.

Still "simply observing while your thoughts arise" and "forcing your mind to think about a future situation" seems very seperate to me.
 

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, ahmet sukru said:

I think Shin answered this:

Yes, I’m aware of Shin’s thoughts on this.  I was curious about your thoughts. There is no right or wrong answer. ? 

[ahmet sukru]

9 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yes, I’m aware of Shin’s thoughts on this.  I was curious about your thoughts. There is no right or wrong answer. ? 

From my personal experience, there were no arising thoughts while I experience my most powerful meditative moments.
So my answer is more like "no"
But they were mostly between the crazy thought storm moments.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, ahmet sukru said:

From my personal experience, there were no arising thoughts while I experience my most powerful meditative moments.
So my answer is more like "no"
But they were mostly between the crazy thought storm moments.

The gaps between thought storms is a great way to describe it. ?? 

Sometimes the mind-body is caught in the storm and it’s miserable. Yet there is also a peaceful place to rest with the storm occurring “outside”. It is a very different experience. Here, even storms can be beautiful to watch and experience.

[iTommy]

7 hours ago, ahmet sukru said:

What about the ego? Meditation surely dissolves your ego and your attachment to it,
But when you visualize about the things YOU want, (money, career whatever) wouldn't it feed your ego?
Maybe they both work together like "first dissolving your current ego and building another one which will be more useful"..

You're right, visualization (manifesting etc.) usually does feed the ego-self, trying to get it to become a stronger, a more self-actualized ego. When you combine concentrative/mindful meditation with manifesting, then you're also dissolving ego-structures, and as you mentioned, you're more easily able to build a more healthy sense of self.

It's useful to first build a strong ego, and then transcend this one, since you're more grounded at that point in life. I think mindfulness needs to be applied here, afterall, the ego/self-identification is not you and fighting something that is illusory (the ego) doesn't do much good. It's good to embody the ego, accepting it fully and eventually seeing it for what it is. Self-actualization helps with that, and visualization compliments this. I find both self-actualization and self-transcendence important. Having one foot grounded in duality, the other in non-duality  

[ahmet sukru]

On 12.05.2019 at 2:39 AM, Serotoninluv said:

To deconstruct the illusionary nature of the timeline, observe how it works. 

So how do you observe how time works? Once I lost my sense of time with psychedelics, but not through meditation

[ahmet sukru]

13 hours ago, iTommy said:

You're right, visualization (manifesting etc.) usually does feed the ego-self, trying to get it to become a stronger, a more self-actualized ego. When you combine concentrative/mindful meditation with manifesting, then you're also dissolving ego-structures, and as you mentioned, you're more easily able to build a more healthy sense of self.

It's useful to first build a strong ego, and then transcend this one, since you're more grounded at that point in life. I think mindfulness needs to be applied here, afterall, the ego/self-identification is not you and fighting something that is illusory (the ego) doesn't do much good. It's good to embody the ego, accepting it fully and eventually seeing it for what it is. Self-actualization helps with that, and visualization compliments this. I find both self-actualization and self-transcendence important. Having one foot grounded in duality, the other in non-duality  

This comment is pure gold. Thank you

[Forestluv]

On 5/13/2019 at 3:55 PM, ahmet sukru said:

So how do you observe how time works? Once I lost my sense of time with psychedelics, but not through meditation

Observe how thoughts go back and forth - past, future, past, future - back and forth to keep the story in tome going. And thoughts updates the story as it goes along. 

During meditative times, I like to let the extended story go and be with what is actual. I may sit in nature and observe. Here, thoughts may arise - yet they have a different flavor than the “me” story. A different flavor than the thoughts trying to figure stuff out. Here, if thoughts arise they are inter-connected to feelings, experience and what is appearing all around me right now. This flavor of thought is delicious. It is curious, appreciative, awe. 

[Matt8800]

On 5/11/2019 at 4:36 PM, ahmet sukru said:

Hi,
I am meditating since (almost) 2 years and visualizing for a couple of months. I see both of them as beneficial.
But a thought is grinding in my head since I have a visualization habit which I do right after my meditation sessions.

When I meditate I expect to be:

   - Fully present, Not be in the past or the future
   - Not forcing my mind to do anything, no thoughts
   - Not trying to be something or someone, allowing to accept myself or whatever I feel about myself

But when I visualize I am:

    - Fully on the future
    - Forcing my mind to create a vision. thoughts are on
    - Trying to be something that I create on my mind which is basically not me right now

It seems like they are opposite kind of works to me. Sometimes I feel I am trying to do what I avoid on other one with my mind.
But the suprising thing to me is I see some people think they are "meditating" while they are actually "visualizing" (or manifesting)
Or they somehow combine them, even sell them or see them very closely.
What do you think about this issue?
Are they contradict with each other? or opposite?

@ahmet Visualizing and meditation are two different things. Meditation is for developing concentration and insight to deconstruct the ego. Visualizing is used for energy work.

[ahmet sukru]

3 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Observe how thoughts go back and forth - past, future, past, future - back and forth to keep the story in tome going. And thoughts updates the story as it goes along. 

During meditative times, I like to let the extended story go and be with what is actual. I may sit in nature and observe. Here, thoughts may arise - yet they have a different flavor than the “me” story. A different flavor than the thoughts trying to figure stuff out. Here, if thoughts arise they are inter-connected to feelings, experience and what is appearing all around me right now. This flavor of thought is delicious. It is curious, appreciative, awe. 

 

1 hour ago, Matt8800 said:

@ahmet Visualizing and meditation are two different things. Meditation is for developing concentration and insight to deconstruct the ego. Visualizing is used for energy work.

Thanks a lot

[Hellspeed]

Visualization is a tool, after you conquer breath in your attention.