Understanding the Limits of Models and Knowledge

[Dylan Page]

Hey everyone! I have had some trouble understanding the full implications of the limits of models and science. There are certain things like Godel's incompleteness theorems, the fact that what we consider "objective" is more like universal agreement, and the idea that no set within a super set can fully model the super set (aka, nothing inside of the universe can fully explain the mechanics of the entire universe). I just want to discuss the big questions that science, philosophy, and other areas are trying to answer. If anyone wants to talk on discord or something I would love to

[Leo Gura]

No Discord. Talk here.

[Conrad]

52 minutes ago, Dylan Page said:

Hey everyone! I have had some trouble understanding the full implications of the limits of models and science. There are certain things like Godel's incompleteness theorems, the fact that what we consider "objective" is more like universal agreement, and the idea that no set within a super set can fully model the super set (aka, nothing inside of the universe can fully explain the mechanics of the entire universe). I just want to discuss the big questions that science, philosophy, and other areas are trying to answer. If anyone wants to talk on discord or something I would love to

Science and scientists are God, this is obvious if you conscious that God exists and is Everything. 

But science will never find God. God can only be found within the scientists, not outside of them. 

Philosophy is just mental mastrubation, delusion after delusion.

Direct experience, self-inqury, meditation is the way to Actuality/Truth aka God. And some weed on top of that ?

[Dylan Page]

What is experience? Given that we need to basically become the super set or bigger in order to understand the super set, the only way to understand the universe would be to "become the universe", whatever that means. I just want to understand how one can have not only an enlightenment experience, but literally any sort of experience, and claim that they understand the universe through a new lens of consciousness. What makes an enlightenment experience different than what I am I seeing right now? Is enlightenment an experience or is it a realization? Can I write down this realization? Can someone tell me this realization? I'm so confused on how I can understand and how I can be sure without a doubt that I understand. (And my b Leo I'll talk here :P) @Leo Gura @Conrad

Edited May 12, 2019 by Dylan Page
didn't add the @'s on accident

[ajasatya]

@Dylan Page only the mind can be confused. drop the mind even for a few seconds and you'll have a glimpse of true freedom (freedom of mind, spiritual liberation).

go to retreats, embody mindfulness. stop trying to grasp no-mind with mind.

[Dylan Page]

What is the mind? @ajasatya 

When I "drop" the mind, what does that actually mean? When I think drop the mind, I think become unconscious, I seem to be the mind, and everything else is simply a projection. If I am not the mind, than what am I? 

[ajasatya]

1 minute ago, Dylan Page said:

What is the mind? @ajasatya 

When I "drop" the mind, what does that actually mean? When I think drop the mind, I think become unconscious, I seem to be the mind, and everything else is simply a projection. If I am not the mind, than what am I? 

excellent questions. such questions are worth a few years of contemplation.

nobody will be able to answer those for you... not because they don't know the answers for themselves. but because such questions can't be answered by someone else.

this is the best part of self-inquiry: there can be no other authority than direct conscious experience. anything else is merely a belief.

good luck.

[Dylan Page]

Thank you, I just don't know if my conscious experience actually means anything in regards to truth. Partly because I don't have any reason to believe that we are hard wired that way, but also because I don't even know what truth is. Thanks for the responses though. @ajasatya

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, Dylan Page said:

Thank you, I just don't know if my conscious experience actually means anything in regards to truth. Partly because I don't have any reason to believe that we are hard wired that way, but also because I don't even know what truth is. Thanks for the responses though. @ajasatya

Step 1 is realizing literally all you’ve ever, EVER, had is direct experience. At no point in your life have you experienced anything outside of direct, conscious experience. Anytime you experience existence, it only occurs via conscious experience and it has been so at every point you’ve been alive. 

Step 2 is realizing that existence literally cannot manifest any other way EXCEPT through direct experience. When scientists learn about some facet of reality, they do so through direct conscious experience. Reality doesn't manifest any other way for you. So *if* there ever was a way for you to find the existential truth of your self, the absolute truth of who you really are, it must by default manifest through direct experience, as there is no other way for anything within reality to manifest. 

If these points are understood (within your direct experience  ) this will open the rabbit hole for further inquiry.

[Dylan Page]

Yes I do realize that I have only ever had direct experience, but what I am having trouble understanding is, what makes me think that one state of being will reveal more about reality than another? Also, the claim that existence can only exist through direct experience is a dangerous claim because we can't get outside of direct experience. The term exist also seems pretty loaded because it's hard to know what it really means. Does it mean inside the universe? Does it mean that there is some sort of manifestation of it? Again, the word exist is super weird and I don't want to make the claim that existence is only possible through direct experience.  @Consilience

[purerogue]

16 minutes ago, Dylan Page said:

Yes I do realize that I have only ever had direct experience, but what I am having trouble understanding is, what makes me think that one state of being will reveal more about reality than another? Also, the claim that existence can only exist through direct experience is a dangerous claim because we can't get outside of direct experience. The term exist also seems pretty loaded because it's hard to know what it really means. Does it mean inside the universe? Does it mean that there is some sort of manifestation of it? Again, the word exist is super weird and I don't want to make the claim that existence is only possible through direct experience.  @Consilience

There is unlimited potential if you want to explore, do not let anyone tell you otherwise, maybe Nirvana will be your end goal, if it is even a thing, but there is no one way to go about life then go about it,  there are truths that you can find here, but I think to many people make mistake of interpreting truth in their own way , when it is just how things work, be careful of information with  unnecessary meanings, or label of only way, ultimate goal ,etc. 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2019 by purerogue

[Conrad]

2 hours ago, Dylan Page said:

What is experience? Given that we need to basically become the super set or bigger in order to understand the super set, the only way to understand the universe would be to "become the universe", whatever that means. I just want to understand how one can have not only an enlightenment experience, but literally any sort of experience, and claim that they understand the universe through a new lens of consciousness. What makes an enlightenment experience different than what I am I seeing right now? Is enlightenment an experience or is it a realization? Can I write down this realization? Can someone tell me this realization? I'm so confused on how I can understand and how I can be sure without a doubt that I understand. (And my b Leo I'll talk here :P) @Leo Gura @Conrad

@Dylan Page

1 hour ago, ajasatya said:

nobody will be able to answer those for you... not because they don't know the answers for themselves. but because such questions can't be answered by someone else.

this is the best part of self-inquiry: there can be no other authority than direct conscious experience. anything else is merely a belief.

good luck.

This. Do the work bro, see where it takes you. All you have is direct experience. Find out what direct experience is and what is aware of it. ??

[Consilience]

33 minutes ago, Dylan Page said:

Yes I do realize that I have only ever had direct experience, but what I am having trouble understanding is, what makes me think that one state of being will reveal more about reality than another? Also, the claim that existence can only exist through direct experience is a dangerous claim because we can't get outside of direct experience. The term exist also seems pretty loaded because it's hard to know what it really means. Does it mean inside the universe? Does it mean that there is some sort of manifestation of it? Again, the word exist is super weird and I don't want to make the claim that existence is only possible through direct experience.  @Consilience

This is precisely my point. You cannot, and literally could not get outside of direct experience. In this regard, your existence is direct experience, the two are inseparable. 

The mind has stories about existence, about theoretical facets that exist outside of direct experience but notice what that is - it’s the mind telling stories about reality but it’s doing so within direct experience. No matter where you turn or how hard you try to find a piece of reality beyond direct experience, you will never do so. Funny how that works. 

 

My ultimate point that models and knowledge all occur as direct experience. All of your life, of reality has only ever been available to you through direct experience... so look there. Who are you directly? Not what the mind tells you (via models and knowledge) but who are you directly, in this present moment, and all moments?

If there is ever going to be an answer, it must come through direct experience just as every point of your life already has. 

Edited May 12, 2019 by Consilience

[Conrad]

9 minutes ago, Conrad said:

@Dylan Page

This. Do the work bro, see where it takes you. All you have is direct experience. Find out what direct experience is and what is aware of it. ??

All this forum is duality words. All words are only pointers to That which cannot be pointed at, that which is unspeakable, beyond and prior to the mind itself.

Become conscious and aware of what you are. All questions will then vanish like thin air. 

[Dylan Page]

@Conrad I'm definitely gonna try it, it seems that its literally impossible to understand before the fact lol

[Conrad]

3 minutes ago, Dylan Page said:

@Conrad I'm definitely gonna try it, it seems that its literally impossible to understand before the fact lol

??❤️

I recommend reading Ramana Maharshi's book "Who am I?" It's a very good book. If you have any questions regarding Self-inqury and stuff like that pm me and I will try to help as best as I can ?

[Leo Gura]

@Dylan Page You are trying to understand enlightenment before enlightenment. If you could do that, you'd already be enlightened. So obviously that cannot work.

Enlightenment is a radical shift in consciousness in which you realize that you were never born and that your whole life was a dream.

You become so conscious that you awaken from life to realize it never happened and that you are actually formless, immortal, and God.

This is outside the realm of any kind of experience you've ever had. It's beyond "experiencing" altogether. It's beyond "life" as you know it. It's a totally new thing. And yet, it's not located anywhere else but right here, right now. Which is what makes it so bafflingly paradoxical.

What you're failing to account for in your reasoning is CONSCIOUSNESS! Your level of consciousness totally determines what you consider real, possible, and impossible. So there's just no way to get to enlightenment from where you presently are. And yet, it can still be done. It requires a radical leap in consciousness.

A good way to think of it is that you die and discover what lies on the other side of death. It's not anything you can imagine. It's a lot better than you can imagine.

Psychedelics make it much easier.

[Joseph Maynor]

It's all about context.  In which contexts is a principle useful?  That's the most important question for knowledge.

[Dylan Page]

@Leo Gura I guess my only questions now are, what is consciousness, and is there a hierarchy of levels of consciousness, and how do we know when one level is higher than another. Maybe the answer is that we can just tell which is higher through subjective experience, but again, I just don't know if our experiences actually mean anything in regards to truth. I am probably missing something here, but I am still pretty confused. I do want to make it clear that I am radically open minded to new ideas, and therefore I will look further into enlightenment, hopefully I'll understand it soon.

[Dylan Page]

@Joseph Maynor Yes I agree, science is extremely useful given the context is right, but my interests lie in understanding literally everything, which goes beyond context, there isn't any context anymore, there is all contexts and no context at the same time. That's where I am starting to think that a "theory of everything" is impossible in the scientific sense.