Can right wing politics even be high cosciousness

[Shadowraix]

@Zizzero How is it going Cadwell?  

[kieranperez]

11 hours ago, CreamCat said:

That is too cryptic for me. I don't understand. Do you want to say I'm everything including the government?

There’s nothing cryptic here. It’s literal. You’re not going to “figure it out”. You have to realize you are the system. You are everybody in government and you also fund the entire government in everything it does. 

Go into your supermarket and see everybody buying junk and being sold poison and nonsense and realize you fund that entire system in an extremely intimate way in everything you do and don’t do. You are actually a source of responsibility for all of that. 

When you realize this you’ll be flabbergasted and then you’ll understand that awakening and consciousness work has practical consequences when you don’t rationalize all the evil shit you and I not only do, but also fund and are. 

[jbram2002]

I feel like asking a forum of largely left-leaning individuals about the negative aspects of right-leaning politics is simply shouting into a silo and hearing your echos come back to you. I'm also left-leaning, but there are a lot of values in conservative politics. Keep in mind I'm talking about conservative politics, not politicians. There is a major distinction here, as politicians tend to represent extremes on both sides.

Conservative politics tend to want to lower the risk of a corrupt government. This means lessening the dependence of the average citizen on government entities, such as welfare programs. They don't like the idea of having state-sponsored programs like welfare, health insurance, or many other items. Liberal politics tend to want to use the power of the government to aid those who need assistance, but when the government becomes too corrupt, those people will be in a terrible state. Conservatives tend to want privately-funded programs to aid in welfare, infrastructure, healthcare, etc, as it's less likely that they will fail in a corrupt government. Liberals tend to think businesses are as susceptible, if not more so, to corruption.

Conservative politics tend to want to lower our national debt and reward hard work by not giving advantages to those who haven't earned them. Liberals tend to want to even the playing field and use national money to fund these projects. Evening the playing field means providing advantages to people who, in conservatives' minds, don't deserve them since they are potentially lazy, druggies, or otherwise willingly incapable of hard work. Conservatives tend to take pride in their own hard work and recognize the hard work of others. They tend to build tight-knit communities of hard-working, innovative people who can get by on less money, and they look down on those who need government handouts for any reason. Liberals tend to build loose networks of people who can give them the resources they use to further themselves, but they may be willing to discard someone who is no longer useful to them. 

There are benefits and drawbacks to both sides. In the American political climate right now, prejudices and strongly-held beliefs govern more than being openminded and conscious of the benefits brought by the other side. This is true on both sides: some liberals claim anyone who voted for Donald Trump must be a gullible racist, and some conservatives claim anyone who voted for Hillary Clinton is supporting obvious government corruption. There's no middle ground between "gullible racist" and "corruption." Unless you're both, but that's not what this post is about.

In short, if you can't see any benefits to the other side of your argument, I'd probably guess you still have some work to do in your own spiritual journey. But don't feel bad. I daresay almost all of us have plenty of work left to do.

[Zizzero]

@Shadowraix

Well, there's not much to tell, is there? It's the same old pish-tosh. Gallant knight, epic quests, rescued maidens.
I came to this land when my head was quite unceremoniously separated from my body. Bad luck that, but you make the best of things.

[Zizzero]

@jbram2002 100%. Well said 

[Markus]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I mean abolishing private property in practice. So for example, if you start a business, the government will own it. If you buy a house, your local town/village will own a majority stake in it. That's true communism. And no one is seriously advocating for it.

That's not true communism though. What the Soviet Union did was create an authoritative regime where property and the means of production is nationalized, as part of the theory that such system would be a necessary step before communism, and communism would eventually be brought about by the withering away of the state. The idea of true communism has no money or state.

[Shadowraix]

2 hours ago, Zizzero said:

@Shadowraix

Well, there's not much to tell, is there? It's the same old pish-tosh. Gallant knight, epic quests, rescued maidens.
I came to this land when my head was quite unceremoniously separated from my body. Bad luck that, but you make the best of things.

Don't mean to derail too much but if you play ESO on NA you should totally PM me

[Leo Gura]

Netherlands and the Swiss are starting to move into Yellow a bit.

[Zizzero]

@Shadowraix Haven't played in months. Also, never played on anything other than EU. But thanks for the offer 

@Leo Gura What yellow do you see in Switzerland? Because I am from there, and I'm not sure if I would consider my country to be more developed than other countries in Europe and North America. 

[Leo Gura]

@Zizzero I will soon be adding new books to my book list which go into detail about Spiral Dynamics as it is found around the world.

So I was basically quoting that. Personally I have not been to see it for myself.

Generally-speaking Northern Europe is starting to dip their toes into Yellow. But it's still very early. There are no solid Yellow governments yet. But they will probably emerge first in Northern Europe.

This is rather technical stuff which requires some deep reading. It cannot be philosophized about casually.

[Zizzero]

@Leo Gura ?? thx for the answer

[Leo Gura]

54 minutes ago, Shiva said:

There's not a single politician I know in Europe who is even remotely stage yellow. If there is, please show me, he'll have my vote!

You are expecting too much. It's too early for that yet.

Be happy with mid to high Green politicians.

Politics is a very pragmatic sport. You can't be too idealistic about it. It's not about perfection, it's about gradual incremental improvements. The best you can get is the best you can get.

Overall, society is still pretty damn good in America or Europe. Compared to how society was 500 years ago.

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Shiva Do you have a good source to read up for the upcoming European election? I keep following American news, so no idea what happens in Europe currently.

[tedens]

@ValiantSalvatore generally right-wingers have grown stronger but now every option is on the table.

[ValiantSalvatore]

@tedens Is there a good online news service that you use or youtube channel? 


Something with dense information not too elaborated and complicated 

Edited May 10, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[tedens]

@ValiantSalvatore I'm not using any specific source. But there are probably some dense services. Its all depends what you're interested in especially, what you want to reach.

[Inliytened1]

@Shiva I really resonate with this as well.  There is something that transcends both.

I have studied Spiral Dynamics via Leo's teachings, I have not gone outside yet and read other books on it - so I have a question on it for you guys.

I think someone on the forum (Ponder, I believe) mentioned that Stage Coral is swing back to individualism, but incorporating Turquoise' collective thinking into it.

Is that the case?  Leo's episodes didn't talk much about Coral, maybe because it is not considered one of the actual stages?

My question on this as to how it relates to politics, is this:

I believe personally i have shades of orange, green, yellow, and turquoise in me.  I have Awoken, and see things much more holistically now.

But there is still a part of me that believes the Left is too Left, and the Right is too Right.

We need to somehow transcend this where we have something that emerges from both Socialism and Capitalism.

Thoughts and how this might relate to Stage's Turquoise and Coral?

 

[ValiantSalvatore]

@tedens Nah, I was just curious. Because I can relate with the right wing being more dominant. In my hometown, they have a lot more placards about from the right wing saying multiculturism kills, as their slogan. Still, the majority of people don't seem to be right wing, so I was curious if there are any news. Yet, with the terrorist attacks in sri lanka and new zeland iirc, it's nothing new. I subscribed to the Washington Post, out of recommendation from leo's blog + interest in general about politics. That is why I am asking. 

 

[tedens]

@ValiantSalvatore Generally the big picture counts but that requires a lot of curiosity for understanding mechanisms of action.

Edited May 10, 2019 by tedens

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Inliytened1 Every stage changes from an I centric to a WE-centric value structure. 

Orange is I centric

Green is We centric
Yellow is I centric etc.
 

So, coral is is I centric and truqouise we centric. 

That just means and this is my interpretation that behavior and norms are regulated either more on a personal or a collective level. 

15 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Shiva I really resonate with this as well.  There is something that transcends both.

I have studied Spiral Dynamics via Leo's teachings, I have not gone outside yet and read other books on it - so I have a question on it for you guys.

I think someone on the forum (Ponder, I believe) mentioned that Stage Coral is swing back to individualism, but incorporating Turquoise' collective thinking into it.

Is that the case?  Leo's episodes didn't talk much about Coral, maybe because it is not considered one of the actual stages?

My question on this as to how it relates to politics, is this:

I believe personally i have shades of orange, green, yellow, and turquoise in me.  I have Awoken, and see things much more holistically now.

But there is still a part of me that believes the Left is too Left, and the Right is too Right.

We need to somehow transcend this where we have something that emerges from both Socialism and Capitalism.

Thoughts and how this might relate to Stage's Turquoise and Coral?

 

There is not much information from the author Don Beck about stage coral if it all. Coral would and does include stage turquoise since each stage transcends and includes. Also, an important distinction is that spiral dynamics is about values or rather value codes within people.

Meaning that is how they govern themselves and interact with the environment. Take the term ethnocentrism which means the folk you belong to determines the what is valued in your collective, like honesty, xenophobia, family and capitalism etc. A collective or individual of this value or value group will express this somehow in their behavior and frown upon every other individual or collective not expressing these values, socially denigrate them and marginalize them in a sense. I am going with the original definition of ethnocentrism as in Wikipedia. Ethno = folk , centrism = centric. 

It's relevant to politics since it is a system or map, which explains the differences in people unifying concepts used in psychology and other disciplines. ( the author is a psychologist).

I don't really know what socialism or capitalism exactly is since I never studied it when I think of getting rid of socialism and capitalism I always of to think of libertarians ruling the world from their yachts. 

For instance, the author introduced the concept of sprial dynamics with beige, green, etc. To people in South Africa helping to get rid of apartheid by explaining that there are differences in people, by their vMems or memetic does, meaning how their world view, a value structure as described above or an organizing principle permeating thought structures, systems and various forms of cultural expressions. 

So, people would not be labeled black and white and they received an explanation that there are different value structures operating inside the people and that they have to talk the language of that value structure. Yellow is the first structure-aware (stage) of the whole spiral. 

Spiral dynamics was already used in political and social affairs, yet I can't really make out of the book how effective it was. I just finished it yesterday and it has a lot of theory imo. Which is common sense but not... common practice. 

Stage Turquoise includes the spiritual aspects and wants to macro manage all life forms towards a common good in response to macro problems. 
Like universal basic income potentially, or new ways of agriculture to produce food in countries with a lot of soil like India, to reduce the scarcity of food on the planet, while cutting down giant industries, and using permaculture or anything like that even making amendments for their history. This is more or less my own two cents. In case I got the idiom right. This would be my idea, but I don't have enough knowledge to spin a very good concept around this.