No-Mind = Ralston's Not-Knowing?

[kieranperez]

Is what Ralston's describing in Book of Not Knowing actually the same as No-Mind in Zen? 

I was doing some homework on No-Mind alongside my contemplations, which have been extremely flat, and noticed that another translation of "no-mind" is "not-knowing". 

I've been really trying to deepen my contemplations through Ralston's work but I think I don't really get the "magnitude" (not to sound like I'm dramatizing it) of a deep conscious state of not knowing.

Though Ralston is extremely clear, I do often find that he doesn't get across the depth and even practices of these deeper states because when I "try" (pardon the limits of language) to open up to deeper not-knowing when I'm trying to really follow along with his work, I feel like there's something much deeper that he doesn't communicate. 

 

[Consilience]

I definitely feel you on that. Not knowing to me seems to be dis identifying with the mind though, or rather, recognizing the mind for what it is in actuality. As strange as this may sound, you can be in a state of not knowing while simultaneously having the mind thinking.

 

From my perspective, Not knowing = Being. His work is immense and often times thing will click after I set down his books and then return to them. 

 

Overall one can not know while the mind is on full throttle. Why? Because it’s actually impossible for the mind to know anything, which is something we easily lose sight of. The mind is a shapeshifting, symbol creating machine used for concept survival. It never *really* knew anything. 

 

[montecristo]

ive been contemplating and experimenting with an inability to not recognize and read a word upon gazing at it. I cant look at legible type without the word popping out in my head and making noise. So I've been trying to cultivate not knowingness in my mind to the point that i stop seeing the word for it's symbolic meaning. 

overall nothing has worked as deeply on my mind like Ralston has yet.

[Inliytened1]

@kieranperez Yep that's what he is trying to get at.

Notice that book is rather lengthy because he is slowly working up to you grasping Being (at least as a concept) 

I think he says at the beginning of the book if you've already experienced Being or your true nature just put the book down and go Be IT.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Inliytened1

[kieranperez]

@montecristo @Inliytened1 awesome responses! Thanks for the feedback!

Here's what I've been going through lately: 

• To REALLY get I don't know. I'm trying to really open up to how much I take for granted and overlook. I notice that when I read something in a book that points out something using some exercises in awareness, my first reaction is always the same "how the fuck did I overlook this?!" To actually a frustrating degree because I'm trying to really cultivate my curiosity so much more but I'll get discouraged because, if I'm honest, I'll observe my perception and try to meditate on "what is perception" but I'll struggle really opening up. I'll keep noticing things I overlook only after someone shares some insight or whatever. 
• Work on my mindfulness so that I can start being more present with what's actually occurring. This has been hard because since, due to my ADHD and not being able to get treatment that address the cognitive root issues just yet, I really struggle being able to hold my attention without having this total cognitive collapse. Cognitive issues here have really made this hard. For example, I'll meditate on something external like on an object and I'll have a few seconds where I'm calmly observing mindfully but then I'll go into this cognitive/brain fog where my attention just completely collapses. Then if I focus on say a question like what is existence, I'll notice I'll get more lost in the mental part of the question (if that makes sense) that I'll eventually get so lost and I won't even know what I'm really asking or really contemplating. 
• Becoming more open to investigate regardless of how I feel. I'm noticing just how much I don't care about investigation a lot because I'll notice day-day I'm so lost in my routine, my problems, my emotional patterns, etc. that I don't give a shit about truth or about deeper parts of life. I really feel bothered and uncomfortable with that. 

Ralston's work is both so inspiring and also so discouraging at the same time. 

It's inspiring because I literally feel so juiced with the possibilities and just total jaw dropping wonder of "I COULD LEARN/DO THAT?!" However, the framework for his work just seems so "loose" that it's hard for me to really do anything with it. I understand totally why he avoids paradigms, creating systems, etc. in a lot of his work and that's one of the reasons I love his work. 

It's frustrating for me because, I really try to look at Ralston's work with the understanding that Ralston clearly an incredibly deeply fucking enlightened master (not trying to put him on a pedestal here) so when I read his work I'm trying to really slow down and be like "where is he really trying to have me come from? Where is he really coming from when he says this?" In other words I try not to take what I'm reading for granted. At the same time though, I struggle with it because I just don't have the concentration, mindfulness, or emotional centeredness to really as deep as I can with this and his exercises are basically just going straight to contemplating right away, aside from a couple small attention exercises. It skips over pretty much what it takes cognitively to really be able to drill into the meat of this work.

[outlandish]

My interpretation/understanding/impression, inescapably flawed but possibly useful:

In zen no-mind describes the state of unconditioned being-ness.

Ralston describes essentially the same thing, but maybe more emphasis on the route. Not-knowing being a prerequisite to no-mind, you can't abide in no-mind if you know what it is already, since that would be a mind's attempt to condition/categorize unconditioned being. 

It's funny how much detail he goes into on this topic. It's both futile and crucial, a waste of time and also the only thing worth bothering with. I have to admit that found the writing tedious in parts of that book and majorly skimmed the middle 1/2. If I was more disciplined and dedicated I'm sure it would have been pure gold.

[montecristo]

@kieranpereztotally agree with your appraisal of Ralston.

1. try to practice not knowing just upon waking and into your next morning activities like getting dressed etc. this can yield very effective yet destabilizing experiences so use at your own risk. youre at your most suggestible/open while still swithcing from sleeping brain waves to waking brain waves so it is a good way to induce the state.

2. i take 1/8th of an armodafinil 150 along with a microdose of weed on from a vape pen. This combination has really accelerated my contemplation.

3.neurofeedback can be very helpful as well, i'd def look into that for your add. but honestly i think yoga actually just an ancient form of neurofeedback.

4. being in deep ketosis  for cognition cannot be understated.

I am equally excited by the practical potential of this work, he mentions that it is not a matter of talent or brilliance but rather laziness. you can do this stuff but the only thing in your way is laziness and if im honest with myself this is true.

 

 

[kieranperez]

47 minutes ago, montecristo said:

neurofeedback can be very helpful as well, i'd def look into that for your add. but honestly i think yoga actually just an ancient form of neurofeedback.

Have you used neurofeedback? I’m planning on investing in it in the Fall.

You really think yoga can do the same thing? Sometimes when I concentrate up in the 3rd eye (medulla -> bindhu) I literally get into the weirdest state and holy fuck it’s crazy. I’ve had multiple 3rd eye openings, energetic releases, “extreme” paranormal/psychic stuff (that I don’t wish to go into) happen on the extreme end but on the calmer end (which is where I prefer to stay) I literally have so much more clear mindedness. It’s freaky. You wouldn’t think chanting “Om” and feel medulla -> bindhu (and other points) and the vibration of that chant would do anything significant but it’s honestly not even funny what happens. 

51 minutes ago, montecristo said:

i take 1/8th of an armodafinil 150 along with a microdose of weed on from a vape pen. This combination has really accelerated my contemplation.

I adapt to both regular and armodafinil incredibly fast... and I mean a matter of a couple of days. I’m pretty much baseline on a whole armodafinil after a couple days. I’m kinda done mixing shit up like that. 17 years worth of meds has just lost any sort of interest on trying to settle for magic combos. 

I’ll just speak for myself here but I adapt. There will always be an adaptation in the long term. That’s what the body does. 

I want this change in cognition to be an improvement that comes from genuine growth.

Nothing against other routes for others if they’re aware of the potential and likeliness of adaptation which can lead to staleness (if you follow what I’m saying). 

56 minutes ago, montecristo said:

I am equally excited by the practical potential of this work, he mentions that it is not a matter of talent or brilliance but rather laziness. you can do this stuff but the only thing in your way is laziness and if im honest with myself this is true.

I both agree with this and also completely disagree. 

I could go on and on much further on the specifics of Ralstons work that literally has me starry eyed when it comes to the possibilities and potential that comes with this work. 

However, Ralston doesn’t seem (and this is just an assumption) to recognize or appreciate that he is extrodinarily gifted. Mastery of this work requires EXTRODINARY degrees of discipline, concentration, radical openness, emotional stability, degrees of mindfulness, curiosity, radical openness to a degree many of us really can’t fathom. When you really get where he’s coming from (I suspect many of the people who study under him just don’t comprehend that at all) and even when you watch his videos, you can taste that he’s coming from a really faaaaaaar out place. That guy has literally no identification with anything. He is a freak of nature. Not everybody can do it that way. Right now, there’s no way I could from an emotional and cognitive standpoint. I’ve had the discipline much younger so that would take time but that’s about it. The amount of emotional and psychological systems that are set up to prevent you from doing this work for your own survival alone takes a lot to work with. Ralston started since he was a child. Think of the MASSIVE advantage that is. Most people really do need a teacher to kinda hold their hand in person for when the going gets really fucking hard. That’s why there are Zen masters and gurus.

Ralston doesn’t seem acknowledge talent much and I think that’s reflected in his teaching style of like “just do it”.

[iTommy]

On 8.5.2019 at 8:44 AM, kieranperez said:

I've been really trying to deepen my contemplations through Ralston's work but I think I don't really get the "magnitude" (not to sound like I'm dramatizing it) of a deep conscious state of not knowing.

Though Ralston is extremely clear, I do often find that he doesn't get across the depth and even practices of these deeper states because when I "try" (pardon the limits of language) to open up to deeper not-knowing when I'm trying to really follow along with his work, I feel like there's something much deeper that he doesn't communicate. 

 

I struggle with this too. The book exercise for example, where you just look at the book (or another object) and you try to "not-know" what it is. After a while it seems as if the mind is able to open up a bit more, and it feels as if the book/perception has more depth to it, but I'm yet to really tap into "not-knowing". All those concepts, beliefs and ideas about everything seems to really cloud what's there, and it all happens so damn fast. It really goes to show the work, that's usually required to see beyond that cloud for clarity. 

[Nahm]

@kieranperez You’re missing how you’re deepening the thought stories of knowing. 

[NoSelfSelf]

I thought not knowing is to avoid trap of thinking you know things but you actually dont or you partialy know it and miss steps in between...not knowing allow us to not fall in that kind of traps...

[Forestluv]

23 hours ago, Consilience said:

As strange as this may sound, you can be in a state of not knowing while simultaneously having the mind thinking.

?? 

It can feel strange too. Especially initial experiences.

23 hours ago, montecristo said:

ive been contemplating and experimenting with an inability to not recognize and read a word upon gazing at it. I cant look at legible type without the word popping out in my head and making noise. So I've been trying to cultivate not knowingness in my mind to the point that i stop seeing the word for it's symbolic meaning. 

This is a great exercise. I came across this while learning my first foreign language, Spanish. For two years I tried to create new symbolic meaning to symbols that had no meaning. I initially gave Spanish words English meanings by translating in my head. After a while, the Spanish words simply had meaning with no translation into English words. Then. . . I realized I was doing a subtle form of subconscious “translation”. When I see (or hear) English words, the stimuli is automatically “translated” into meaning without any effort. This is the goal in becoming fluent. The ability to subconsciously and effortlessly give meaning has immense practical value, yet it is also a filter and alters/limits the essential nature of ISness.

Words and thoughts seem to be the main machine in assigning meaning. Without words and thoughts assigning meaning, the direct experience is very different. Yet it’s a deeply conditioned system. As you mentioned, try to look at an English word as a bunch of squiggles and lines. It’s very difficult. Yet if I look at Chinese characters, it is effortless. In this context, we are “unlearning” meaning. It’s not to say that assigning meaning is “bad”, it’s that assumptions and attachments to meanings can cause distress in a mind-body. As well, there is so much more to experience / beingness than meaning.

Sometimes I walk in nature and try not to give labels and meaning to everything I am sensing/perceiving. Similar to your word exercise, it’s really hard. Sometimes I get frustrated, yet I try to relax, get curious and fun - more like it’s a game. Then it’s easier to relax into a state of beingness in which meaning is absent, it just doesn’t appear. That pure beingness is ISness. My mind wants to give it meaning by calling it beautiful or love. Yet in the absence of assigning that meaning, it just IS. Similar to absence of meaning when looking at a word. It just IS. 

I’m also realizing that it goes deeper than words / thoughts. Underlying feelings also assign meaning. In my mind, thoughts seem to take center stage. When words / thoughts slow down, it becomes apparent that feelings also assign meaning. Yet this is a different “language”. A language without words.

Thanks for this prompt, it got me contemplating. I’m curious if you have more contemplations/thoughts that may arise in this area ? 

[David Hammond]

@kieranperez Just watch your breath. Everything will become apparent. There is no need for all this faffing around in the mind. Even Ralston himself says so.