I don't know what I don't know

[jbram2002]

Quote

Just because I'm losing doesn't mean I'm lost!
Doesn't mean I'll stop; doesn't mean I will cross

Just because I'm hurting doesn't mean I'm hurt
Doesn't mean I don't get what I deserved
No better and no worse

I just got lost
Every river that I tried to cross
Every door I ever tried was locked
Oh and I'm just waiting 'til the shine wears off

You might be a big fish in a little pond
Doesn't mean you've won
'Cause along may come a bigger one.

There's a rap section in this song whose lyrics are pretty deep, but no one ever listens to the lyrics in rap music. I suggest people look them up and dig into them, but here's a snippet:

Quote

So it's tough being Bobby Brown
To be Bobby then, you have to be Bobby now
And the question is, 'Is to have had and lost
Better than not having at all?'

I had no clue who Bobby Brown was, so I looked him up. Asides from being a slang term for really bad weed, Bobby Brown was a sensational star, at one point called the King of R&B. He got together with Whitney Houston, and the two of them created a dynasty together. Then, the two of them started to fall into bad drug habits and things went really poorly for them. The media destroyed them both, but especially Bobby Brown whose career never recovered. 

"To be Bobby then" means to be the rich and famous. "You have to be Bobby now" means that people will shut you down and tear you apart once you've acquired your fame. It's an interesting way to look at accepting both the good and the bad that comes with your ambitions. 

Edited June 13, 2019 by jbram2002

[DrewNows]

I feel like this topic/video would be fun to discuss with you two @jbram2002@Bill W

Basically it's about why we play zero sum games in relationship dynamics. When i say we i just mean people in general, and I of course have unknowingly done this

edit: okay so I guess she disliked the first titled post and reuploaded it: 

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by DrewNows

[Bill W]

Thought I'd copy & paste my PM to you Drew so JBram can get an extra insight to Billl W (for what it's worth!)

Hey,

I could not get into this at all. Watched it all, all be it lost some focus on/off.

I love her voice and the pace and tone of her speech, but it sounds too much like the dating/sexuality/relationships part of this forum which I don't get much out of. 

This might sound arrogant, but I really believe if I get myself right in terms of my values I won't need to worry about strategies and tactics to enhance relationships. If I am open-minded, humble, grateful, honest and have faith & courage, everything else will fall into place, EVERYTHING! That's my plan my friend  

I really agree with her talking about programmed beliefs. I also refer to this as the human condition, or whenever I am feeling a bit of a devil, I call it the human condition infection which most of us are afflicted with and we are trying to sort out / manage the symptoms. 

A lot of what you post on the forum is in line with how I would like to think and handle things, so I'm always interested if you see something and think there is even a small chance I would find it useful.

By me being honest with the stuff you do highlight to me, it will save you wasting your time etc.

There are four things common on this forum that I am completely not interested in right now and that's material success, romantic relationships, sexual needs and psychedelics (just so you know). Not sure why I told you that, kinda random! 

[jbram2002]

@DrewNows Thanks for sharing the video! I've been busy this weekend, but I'll try to find time to watch it and share insights.

From your description alone, I would say I believe the zero-sum game is often extremely dangerous to play. Not just in romantic relationships, but in all relationships. I'd say to @Bill W that you can translate a lot of the relationship advice to friendships as well... just dropping the romantic part of it. You say you don't think you need to enhance relationships, and you might be right. I have similar opinions about what you said. However, some people are more difficult to work with than others, and nearly everyone has moments where they are impossible to work with. Topics like this help us balance our own needs and interests with that of the other person. You say you want to be open-minded and humble? Then some of these topics can be super useful to understand, even if you don't apply them specifically to your situations.

As for going back to zero-sum... I never have understood why people think any benefit to one person is a detriment to another. There are some things that are that way, of course. But even the most obvious examples (I give my wife $50, so I no longer have that $50) can serve to enhance both sides (she spends the money on something important or edifying for both of us, like food or a hairstyle that improves her mood). There are many things that seem like they're pointless or detrimental to one person in the relationship, but following through with that often helps both sides.

One thing that feels pointless to me right now is trying to get my daughter to sleep in her own bed. There are several annoyances involved: A) it cuts into my limited free time, B) she's a super light sleeper, so any movement or anything wakes her up, and C) her floor and door make a lot of noise so it's impossible for me to sneak out when she's asleep. This leads to me waiting for an hour for her to get into a deep enough sleep before I try to tiptoe out, and still 70% of the time, she wakes up. At that point, it's over. She has to sleep in our bed or she's inconsolable and no one gets sleep.

I could get frustrated at the wife for not putting in more effort to fix this on her own. But what would that serve other than getting her mad at me? She's super exhausted at night time after dealing with similar stuff all day long. It might be somewhat detrimental to me to do this, but there are plenty of positives with it too. I get to cuddle my daughter to sleep. I get to help my wife get some unhindered sleep at night. And on the few nights where she does sleep well, the wife can get several hours before my daughter wakes up.

There are a bunch of other things I could go into, but they all boil down to the same thing: I'm investing into my family and my future happiness. Even if I'm temporarily frustrated, isn't it all worth it in the end? Instead of it being a zero-sum game, we should consider that anything that benefits one of us also benefits both of us. As long as the detriment to one of us doesn't outweigh the benefit to the other, we should be fine. But usually the benefits far exceed the detriments.

Edited June 17, 2019 by jbram2002

[DrewNows]

damn haha @jbram2002 you think you know it all before you even watch the video! 

Things must be going well man. Perhaps carry your daughter to her room after she falls...no worries if she wakes up just tel her your objective. 

Watch the video before we discuss more as I think it may expand the discussion...sometimes this stuff just doesn’t resonate with us so don’t feel bad if there’s no more but I can share stuff too if you’re ending up interested  

[jbram2002]

I apologize if I gave that impression... I was trying to expound my thoughts on the topic with the limited knowledge I have.

On 6/18/2019 at 2:28 AM, Leo Gura said:

The purpose of locking low quality threads is reduce distraction. It's all too easy for people to come here and become keyboard jockeys, wasting their own time and those of the Mods, myself, and all of you guys. No serious spiritual school would allow such distractions. This forum needs to maintain a certain focus and quality level.

Otherwise I would rather just shut the whole thing down.

I see both sides of this discussion, but I think it's moved beyond the point where I can contribute well in that thread. TA is saying that there are plenty of people who are nowhere near self-actualization, and we should be willing to help them achieve even the most basic levels of awakening. These people are often earnest seekers that have absolutely no clue what the first step is, or they think they know everything already. I know there have been a lot of times where I've felt left behind or left out of a conversation because I don't know the first thing about some of what's being discussed. My tactic is to look it up instead of asking questions, for the most part, because posting a thread saying "What is spiral dynamics and how does it apply to me?" would show that I haven't even put in the most basic effort. BUT some people aren't very good at Google, and Google is often not very good at sifting out the wheat from the chaff.

The flip side is that moderation is a really tricky task, no matter what you're moderating. There are some things that are obviously trollish or spammy. And then there's a lot of borderline things. I think the latter is where the sticking point is.

What bothers me about this particular response is that in context, Leo's statement feels haughty and egoic. "I need to delete the posts of those less learned in order to maintain a quality level I find acceptable." He would rather destroy a community than allow posts that are considered lower quality than his limit. Depending on what that limit is, this isn't an extreme point of view, but TA was talking about earnest posts from newcomers. 

"No serious spiritual school would allow such distractions." Is this a serious spiritual "school"? No, it's a forum. We're not here for homework. I'm certainly not here for three-hour weekly lectures. Most of us are here to improve themselves. If you want to keep the school analogy, we have some people who are in kindergarten, and some who are in their doctorate's program. If you want to lock out those who are new seekers, you will turn away people who could eventually become great spiritual leaders due to your haughtiness.

Personally, if that's what the vision for this forum is, I would rather it be shut down.

[Bill W]

This will sound heartless and not directed at you. If people don't like the forum they don't have to be here or as in my case you just have to get what you can from it warts and all. I don't even click with Leo. He has made some statements on things that to me that sound insane. But why should he have to make this forum more compatible with some people's desires? I agree with Leo that he is the teacher. Don't like his message? Go elsewhere, no one is stopping you. Or ignore him. I don't even really pay attention to him and I haven't got 3 hours to waste on videos that could be done in a reasonable length of time. But I still get a lot from this place. Leo doesn't even insist on much. He will let you use the forum and post even if you have no interest in his beliefs and ideas. All you have to do is heed the warnings if he is unhappy with your content. Fight him and you will lose. That's how it should be. That's life. He is the authority for this place.

Not aiming this at you jbram 

Perhaps people can ask themselves "why should he?" for every single thing they think he should care about in terms of people's attachments to how this forum should operate? 

[Bill W]

Jbram please excuse some if the tone above. I'm not angry. Perhaps I'm on the minority and not feeling impacted by Leo's management style. I've also not been on the receiving end of his tough love. I'd like to think it wouldn't bother me but who knows.

I know your post above comes from a good place. Good intentions. You are a very thoughtful person. 

I'm just baffled why people expect Leo to cater for their individual needs so much. 

[DrewNows]

Why do we worry? What are we so concerned about? What are we attached to? What are we seeking? Why do we believe anyone else can give us what we ourselves must realize? What do we think we are protecting? 

[jbram2002]

Don't worry about tone.  I'm not going to get offended too easily. I'm fully expecting a lot of people on this forum really appreciate all of what Leo says and does. I'm simply not one of them.

23 hours ago, Bill W said:

If people don't like the forum they don't have to be here or as in my case you just have to get what you can from it warts and all

You're absolutely right. It's impossible to get a place that fits everything you want. We all just have to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. The issue is when there's too much chaff for it to be worth it, and that's a personal decision everyone needs to make.

22 hours ago, Bill W said:

I'm just baffled why people expect Leo to cater for their individual needs so much. 

So my point isn't that I want Leo to cater to my individual needs. I'll explain a little better:

This forum is a community of individuals. There are a lot of them that enjoy Leo's content, but they are not Leo (asides from how we are everyone in a nondualistic sense, but that's not what I'm talking about). This forum may have been created by Leo, but it is not Leo. It is a community. The members of the community are, to some extent, able to police themselves and sort out issues without needing moderators, and the mods step in as needed. That's perfectly fine and even better than some forums I've been in where the mods had to constantly ban or suspend people. 

However, if the community wants X and it isn't even remotely difficult to provide it, why not give X?

In this case, X is a place for new seekers to get information. Leo doesn't have to touch it. There are plenty of members who are willing to help out those who earnestly are seeking information or to better themselves. Some of these are simplistic questions or "low-quality" balking at tougher concepts.

We have some people who are saying this forum needs to be more elitist, either via paywall or other hidden content that only specific people are allowed to access once they have proven their dedication. This is the exact opposite of what I would like to see. Theories about enlightenment have been hidden away for centuries, only to be shared with the elite. I want to share these things with the common man. I want everyone to gain access to awakening and self-improvement, for if they improve, we all improve. That means allowing the low-quality posts, as long as they aren't actually trolling. 

Like I said, some people here are still in kindergarten. Leo doesn't need to teach a kindergartener's course, though. Someone who has been through that can take up that mantle. You and I can help guide those people while Leo continues to do what he deems best for himself and his channel/vision. But even the most basic form of elitism is detrimental to what I believe his ultimate goal is.

[jbram2002]

22 hours ago, DrewNows said:

Why do we worry? What are we so concerned about? What are we attached to? What are we seeking? Why do we believe anyone else can give us what we ourselves must realize? What do we think we are protecting? 

I feel like this could become a daily mantra with a little tweaking. It's good to ask yourself these questions constantly.

[jbram2002]

A phrase popped into my head this morning, and I wanted to write it down before I forgot. 

"Everyone is too young to die, too wise to learn, and too old to change."

Not sure what it means, if anything. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by jbram2002

[DrewNows]

On 6/23/2019 at 5:48 AM, jbram2002 said:

Everyone is too young to die, too wise to learn, and too old to change

Cool!

Hmm so what’s left....”to be” or “to accept” or “to love” ?