I don't know what I don't know

[jbram2002]

9 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

Who says we don't see what we want to see right now (either consciously or subconsciously)? Are the beliefs you hold even your own? Who influenced them and why take up beliefs or opinions about things you haven't directly experienced? 

We definitely do see what we want to see in a lot of things. Some people have a hard time figuring out what their ego wants them to see vs what they specifically want to see.

As for whether my beliefs are mine... Depends on your definition of self. I've done a lot of self-examination and purged my beliefs, rebuilding them from the ground up. I'm also definitely willing to accept that some of my beliefs are wrong. But I still hold them. As for beliefs about things I haven't experienced, I think we all do this to some degree. We have beliefs about how astronauts float in zero-G, although most of us haven't actually experienced it (and most people have only seen inaccurate films about it as well). Our imaginations can come up with any belief we set them to. It helps us shape our interpretation of the world around us. 

I'm a firm believer of don't knock it until you try it, but my one big exception on this are things that could be harmful far more often than helpful. Drugs fall into that category quite often, especially illegal ones. So, with no desire to try illegal psychedelics, or even to try them if they were legalized, I form my own opinions about them. It's hard to trust the opinion of someone who does them constantly (like Leo) as his opinions might be biased around protecting his ability to continue to do them, or around projecting the positive aspects more than negative in order to feel justified. It would be like asking an alcoholic about their opinion on whether whiskey is good to drink or not.

[Bill W]

@jbram2002 Thanks for the post earlier about giving me permission to run wild & free on your journal. 

[jbram2002]

3 minutes ago, Bill W said:

@jbram2002 Thanks for the post earlier about giving me permission to run wild & free on your journal. 

Of course! Feel free to make me regret it by making me think

[DrewNows]

@jbram2002 All beliefs and perspectives are valid, because if they weren't then they wouldnt be possible. This is why i like to take into consideration as many perspectives as possible if it's related to a topic of high value to myself. Awesome points about beliefs we learn from others, there are so many and that's why it's such a strategic move to stay as open as possible and not get too attached to some beliefs as it only prevents growth. 

12 minutes ago, jbram2002 said:

We definitely do see what we want to see in a lot of things. Some people have a hard time figuring out what their ego wants them to see vs what they specifically want to see.

Yes to see what's real and what's illusion. Enlightenment points to "us" (ego) being an illusion but why believe that?

After an awakening i noticed my ego wanted to take on that belief to feel more secure, and grounded. It wasn't okay being less important, let alone non-existent

26 minutes ago, jbram2002 said:

It would be like asking an alcoholic about their opinion on whether whiskey is good to drink or not.

Well to me this would be the right person to get an opinion from if i desired to try some whiskey as they are probably quite experienced 

But i get what you mean. For psychedelics, there are many perspectives as to why they are good, bad, and banned. There are a couple cities now in the US who just recently decriminalized them

[Bill W]

When I went to sort the threads by "last reply" in the spirituality section, 4 of the top 8 threads are about psychedelics. 

Half of me thinks this is drug taking behaviour that has been so normalised that people see it just as normal as having a bowl of cereal for breakfast, but half of me realises it's up to them. We are free to pursue our journey as we see fit. 

If something is helpful and not harmful to others who am I to step in? I'm talking forum wise. In my line of work I have a duty to be a bit more off the fence and try to minimise risk of harm to yourself if you are a client of mine. It's my job to support and encourage people to not take anything that is not prescribed by a registered/professional physician. 

I've overcome my initial urge when I joined the forum to jump in an accuse everyone of cheating on their way to "enlightenment". I'm glad I kept my mouth shut as I would have only exposed my own ignorance and judgmental attitude. 

I've never tried psychedelics and don't intend to as I have a track record of not being able to use mind altering substances in moderation. I haven't touched a drink or a drug in about 9 months. Prior to that I was drinking and drugging every day (alcohol and sleeping pills). 

 

[DrewNows]

@Bill W you think psychedelics are addictive? Yikes! I’ve had all sorts of addictions and they are the last thing I would ever get addicted to. They aren’t even recognized as an addictive drug to my knowledge 

if it does bother you seeing so many posts about psychs then why not learn more perspectives about them so you get a better understanding of where some forum members are coming from.  

In all honesty I’m simply pro-choice for psychs as long as people understand what they are and do. Id like them to be tested more for treating people. I’m curious if you know exactly what psychedelics do to the brain, what studies have said about people’s experiences and the risks 

[Bill W]

I don't know anything about them to be honest Drew.  In terms of addiction my wording was about not being able to use mind altering substances in moderation but it's a good point about whether they could be addictive. I tend to view an addiction as something you rely on to the point of detriment to your wellbeing even though you have awareness of the damage you are doing. The activity is performed for pleasure, avoidance or escapism. A compulsion to carry on the activity and withdrawal from the activity would be very uncomfortable at least initially. So by my non medical and non official definition of addiction, psychedelics would have a risk, especially in light of people chasing a perceived positive outcome by using them. If you can take or leave such substances and are not depending on them too much then it's not an addiction in my book. 

They may very well not be physically addictive. 

Yes I'd like to know more. You've motivated me to do that out of interest. I'm quite keen on brain chemistry but my knowledge is not advanced at all. 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Bill W

[DrewNows]

@Bill W cool. From what I’ve heard they aren’t physically addictive and by your definition almost every activity could become an addiction. I grew up learning to fear addiction especially alcohol as it was a big contributor to my parents divorce. I’ve since learned addiction and neuroticism is something worth completely understanding, not just on the intellectual level, but more importantly on the physical level (exploring resistance and thought too) 

[jbram2002]

14 hours ago, DrewNows said:

by your definition almost every activity could become an addiction

I follow a similar definition for addiction, and I agree. Nearly every activity can become an addiction when improperly handled. Being on this forum can be addictive. Eating unhealthy food can be addictive. Swearing can be addictive. Cracking your knuckles can be addictive. Really, anything that has an unconscious trigger that you repeatedly fail to suppress can become addictive, even to the point of it being very difficult to overcome that addiction. 

Even positive activities can become addictive, such as exercise. There's a point where exercise can actually be unhealthy, especially if looked at in a non-medical view (although also possible medically). I've tried to be careful in not using the term addiction in relation to psychedelics here, but I think it's fairly obvious that Leo has made it an addiction for himself from what I've seen through his advice. If it's not an addiction, it's definitely a strong reliance that may be borderline unhealthy. 

From what I've seen, most psychedelics do not impose a physical addiction on most people. However, there are some people (like myself) who have an addiction-prone personality. By that, I mean that I am prone to falling into habits and repeating them unconsciously to the point where it's very difficult to stop. This could be almost anything from gaming to drinking soda to binge eating, as long as I don't consciously focus on these things. I've thankfully not had real problems with binge eating since I tend to focus on when I eat to some degree, but even after cutting soda 90% from my diet, I still feel myself unconsciously reaching for where they normally were kept when I open the fridge.

[Zigzag Idiot]

I too have a very addiction-prone personality. Although less in severity than alcohol and cigarettes, drinking Dr Pepper was a very long running one. Hallucinogenics are not appealing to me in the way of being addictive. In the past, I was often doing other substances along with them with my party boy personality. This created a little twist/blindspot in my perspective at times. My one experience with dmt nearly two years ago was anything but pleasant. One lsd trip in my teens was extremely traumatizing. 

I don't view Leo's partial focus on psychedelics as addictive at all but an alternative approach to accelerated growth. I've really done a disservice to the community here in having a party boy attitude regarding psychedelics in the last 3 or 4 months. Although I still value lightheartedness, I'm going to try to cut out the party boy attitude.

I'm making arrangements to have a nn dmt trip in about 2 weeks from now.

[jbram2002]

Being lighthearted is great, especially in a place where a lot of people are super serious. As I'm sure you're aware from your post, you don't have to be a party boy in order to be lighthearted. 

My biggest concern vis a vis Leo and psychedelics is that he is very active in pushing people to do them. He has told multiple people that their only options for advancing are to either take massive dedicated time for meditation or to do psychedelics. And honestly, who's going to choose taking a solid month off work and other commitments when he's providing a shortcut? It feels irresponsible in my opinion, especially for a leader of a community. He doesn't look at anything about the person that could be a negative factor. He doesn't send the person to a resource that would help them limit risks. He doesn't point out the critically obvious fact that it's illegal, and if caught, people could be in serious legal jeopardy. The fact that he's pushing an illegal activity so hard seems extremely irresponsible in my opinion. 

If Leo said something like "there's a lot of risks associated, but if you're having trouble finding time and are willing to deal with the risks, psychedelics may be an option. Check out this link for a lot of things you should be aware of." then I would respect his stance on them a lot more. As is, he basically says "You're worthless and you always will be until you do drugs." And them after-school specials told me to not give in to that sort of rhetoric.  

[Zigzag Idiot]

 

@jbram2002 Even though I sincerely take what Leo says in an overall way, differently than you. I respect what you say. ?

[jbram2002]

@Zigzag Idiot I'm sure that my opinions are clouded both by my extreme prejudice against drugs from my upbringing and by the fact that 90% of what I've heard from him on drugs has been his posts on the forum, not his videos. It's just one of my hangups about Leo's methods in general. He has a lot of good advice out there, but it's hard for me to separate him from his former PUA / self-aggrandizing formula. Mandy tells me he's changed his tune a lot, but his tone on drugs simply seems to echo that (from my limited perspective).

BUT if it's helpful for you, I wish you the best  I just have a hard time believing it would be helpful for me specifically.

[DrewNows]

@jbram2002 Your quarrels about Leo sort of remind me of why republicans and democrats can never come to an understanding. I like to hear your POV too because it definitely is important. When Leo preaches about Psychs it's because of his experience/history with them. Sort of like if I started asking your opinion on gaming or something along those lines. Or even you asking me specifics about working out and fitness i might start making all sorts of assumptions because of all my accumulated experiences. 

That personal bias we have based off our own experience is really hard to let go when there's a desire to share something we find valuable. This is why one of my favorite quotes i heard the past few years is "seek first to understand before being understood". The amazing thing about this work is it shines light on our blind spots and this can help us take a step back from out past self and no longer be so heavily influenced and reliant on it to a neurotic ignorant sense

By the way i do think the definition about addiction Bill gave is pretty good. Watched this video the other day its awesome i believe it talks about neurotic behavior as well as anxieties and why we have them 

Maybe it was actually just relating to this video i watched today 

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by DrewNows

[jbram2002]

5 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

Your quarrels about Leo sort of remind me of why republicans and democrats can never come to an understanding.

I definitely understand this. I think one difference is that although I do have strong disagreements about Leo's point of view, I also recognize that my knowledge is limited and I'm willing to be wrong. I recognize my biases, and I don't feel like I need to live or die by them. However, I still feel he's extremely irresponsible with his recommendations, almost making them into a requirement. I also simply don't resonate with him anyways. I resonate more with Teal Swan, even though I disagree strongly with her on a few things as well. Leo just isn't my kind of mentor. He meanders too much for my taste, and he repeats himself a ton, just tweaking the specifics of what he's saying. For some people, that's a very powerful way of absorbing information, but it's not my favored method.

All that to say... I don't think Leo is a bad person or a bad mentor. He just isn't the right person for me, and I disagree strongly with him on a few points. That doesn't mean I think people should throw out what he says. He has a ton of great advice.

[DrewNows]

Ive shared this before but i recall when i first stumbled onto one of Leo's videos and this was a bit after i had my first awakening and was heavily into Eckhart Tolle. Leo turned me off big time but the information he shared was/is really on point and I grew to accept him for his personality. Teal will forever be my Swan  and im excited to get to a stage where she becomes more predictable and transparent. 

Anyways good stuff man. Im also just sharing and have no idea what you know and do not know. Leo doesn't like to be wrong openly in his position. I do wish he would though, make videos about his ego backlash's and issues with integrating and what to share vs not share to his viewers

edit: also id like to get better at admitting, realizing, knowing when im wrong about things i say and do, this has been a challenging shadow work ill have to inevitably face several times if i dont decide to accept it

Edited June 12, 2019 by DrewNows

[jbram2002]

@DrewNows One thing I've found is that even when you know you're wrong, it's still often hard to accept it and change your long-held belief. But admitting you're wrong is a great first step. What I did was just assume everything I held as truth was wrong, then built up my beliefs fresh. It was difficult to do and required a lot of effort and time, but it's helped me a lot.

[Bill W]

Hi Guys,

Ever since I've looked to other ways of self-development such as spirituality and religion (which is only since 8 months ago) I've come to the realisation that many inspirational teachers have parts of their teaching or presentation that are at the minimum questionable, and at the most downright nuts. I also realise that I'm making a judgment when I come to these conclusions. A judgment that might not be true. 

Take OSHO for example. I'd never heard of him. I was in a bookshop (spirituality section) and picked up his book "The Buddha Said". I've reviewed that book on this forum. I'd say it is for sure in the Top 10 books I've ever read. To a degree, life changing for me, or at least opening up a new level of understanding. After I read the book I Googled him and found all this controversy about him. Before I hit my rock bottom and realised I needed to explore other ways of growing and coping with life, if I'd had read about OSHO on Google before buying his book, I'd never had purchased or even read the book. No way. I would have been embarrassed to even say I owned the book. 

I think what I'm trying to say is I have no real choice but to take away what I want from a teacher and leave the rest. I've yet to find a teacher where 100% of their teachings make sense to me, or are agreeable with me. I used to think I need to keep searching until I found this ultimate teacher. It's a crazy way to think, as my spiritual needs and goals will probably always be fluid and not static, so some teachings that I don't take too now, might hit the spot this time next year.

I also have to remind myself that all these teachers / guru's are human beings as well. They all piss, shit, fart, cry and get anxious just like us. I also think a lot of them are obsessive just like a lot of us. 

I wonder if some of these teachers literally "can't stop"???? They will always be pushing the boat out, trying more extreme things, widening the net etc. Like addicts who never truly quench their thirst. Like gamblers who keep gambling until they win back all their losses. Like base jumpers who keep pushing boundaries and end up splattered on the rocks. 

My personal belief is that some teachers want their teachings to baffle people, to sound complicated so they can tell themselves "this is why it took me 5,10,20,30 years to discover the "Truth", because it's so damn difficult to find it". They have to justify their investment. 

Who would want to admit they have been "doing" spirituality for 10 years + but are possibly no more happy or advanced than Joe Bloggs who is 3 behind them in the queue at the grocery store. Joe Bloggs has never read a personal development book in his life, doesn't know what psychedelics are, and thinks "infinity" is something to do with Toy Story / Buzz Light Year.

This post has just become a general ramble!

Drew - Do you find Teal Swan useful? 

[jbram2002]

35 minutes ago, Bill W said:

I have no real choice but to take away what I want from a teacher and leave the rest.

100% this. I think this is something a lot of people struggle with. A lot of people tend to have an all or nothing approach. If I dislike X about someone, then I must dislike them entirely, or if I agree with Y from someone, I must agree with everything about them. Did you know Hitler had some amazingly good ideas? It's true! He was just so much of a terrible person that even saying that in some places are enough to get you ostracized, even though objectively, it only makes sense for someone who led a country to that extent to have something redeemable about them enough to get people to listen.

I find it very eye-opening and useful to apply this to a lot of people, not just your mentors. For example, you're talking with Joe Bloggs in the grocery store. The guy's a close-minded bigot who doesn't know the first thing about enlightenment. But if you pay attention and want to actually learn from him instead of assuming you're above him, you can learn a ton from Joe, even about enlightenment. You just have to sift through more things that are not helpful. 

I have been seeing this in a ton of interactions I've been having from the carpenter that worked on my house to a frenemy online that just gets under my skin a lot. Once I stop putting myself on a pedestal and decide to actually treat them as equals, I learn a lot from them. Heck, even the frenemy is turning more into a friend because of this.

Another thing to consider: Instead of only taking what you want, take what resonates the most, even the things you really don't like. Sometimes things negatively resonate with you. You find yourself violently pushing back against something... but if you stop to examine your reaction objectively, you might find it was illogical. Perhaps there's a deeper reason for your violent reaction. Perhaps it's a truth you really don't want to hear, but really need to.

[DrewNows]

11 hours ago, Bill W said:

Drew - Do you find Teal Swan useful? 

Of course she can be just as anyone we interact with is. 

I love her psychological component to spirituality

11 hours ago, jbram2002 said:

@DrewNows One thing I've found is that even when you know you're wrong, it's still often hard to accept it and change your long-held belief. But admitting you're wrong is a great first step. What I did was just assume everything I held as truth was wrong, then built up my beliefs fresh. It was difficult to do and required a lot of effort and time, but it's helped me a lot.

I no longer see beliefs to be necessary. I spent a long time as well studying how beliefs work and how/why they are formed.

It feels so amazing right now I can happily say i "know" enlightenment and embodiment is always NOW when accepted