Perhaps our Fears are not Ours?

[SQAAD]

I was reading this article & made me kinda depressed --> https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/article/perhaps-our-fears-are-not-ours 

Does this mean we are somehow doomed to our genetics?  @Serotoninluv I would like to listen your input aswell since you are a scientist.

The below quote is also from the same website.

"Rather than going to war with fear – and deeming it a mistake or problem that you must eliminate, transform, or transcend – the invitation is to enter into relationship with it. Fear has been wired into your nervous system for millions of years and is unlikely to be undone in a few decades through spiritual process. You can rest in the strong likelihood that fear may arise most every day for the rest of your life, in some form or another. Welcome. You are alive."

[Preetom]

That's the thing.

You dig within yourself and you find that what you used to call 'me' is nothing but a jumble of random stuff, most elements you have no idea how they came inside you.

The onion has no center. Only layers.

While we have happy dreams pretending as if we are something other than that

[Robi Steel]

"Genetics" and "Hardwiring over millions of year" is a passing illusion, it is a ruleset that is true from a limited perspective and from a relativistic perspective. At the core, you are not made out of hard genetic wiring, the hard genetic wiring is made out of consciousness and it is occurring within consciousness and is dependent on your perspective on those things. The more you believe in this stuff the more it becomes your reality. 

Fundamentally god has no limits and no rules and is not bound by any physical thing. Your potential is unlimited because fundamentally you are not hard physical stuff but mind stuff. You are the nothingness from which stems endless possibility and capability. 

Genes are a huge trap and limiting belief. You can master your emotions fully and satisfying. Once you are fully awake tho, there really is no need for that, many masters like to stay grounded and enjoy fear or some anger here and there. It is human, it is not inherently bad, you learn to enjoy suffering along the way. Stop loving only the good stuff

[SQAAD]

@Robi Steel

8 minutes ago, Robi Steel said:

Fundamentally god has no limits and no rules and is not bound by any physical thing. Your potential is unlimited because fundamentally you are not hard physical stuff but mind stuff. You are the nothingness from which stems endless possibility and capability. 

 

Yes God has no limits but it puts many limits upon us. I would love my potential to be unlimited But I don't know which is the case .It seems we are very very limited (as humans).

My ego doesn't like this scenario but i think to a certain extent we are doomed by our genetics & old ancestors.

Edited May 1, 2019 by SQAAD

[Robi Steel]

God puts limits upon "us"? Its not like you are some innocent thing and God decided to give you a shitty life. You have put these limits on yourself and in the same way, you have the power to remove them from yourself. Right now, you have unlimited power, you are using this infinite power to create these thoughts which have actual limiting power. If you stop actively believing and giving away your power and stop creating these concepts which take possibility away from you, more than you could ever have imagined is possible for you. @SQAAD

Edited May 1, 2019 by Robi Steel

[SQAAD]

2 hours ago, Robi Steel said:

God puts limits upon "us"? Its not like you are some innocent thing and God decided to give you a shitty life. You have put these limits on yourself and in the same way, you have the power to remove them from yourself. Right now, you have unlimited power, you are using this infinite power to create these thoughts which have actual limiting power. If you stop actively believing and giving away your power and stop creating these concepts which take possibility away from you, more than you could ever have imagined is possible for you. @SQAAD

@Robi Steel I hope so

[Forestluv]

@SQAAD Hmmm, that article referenced an experiment showing the inheritance of a fear response toward electrocution. To me, that sounds like a handy fear to have. Who wants to get electrocuted? If I was able to experience fear just before getting electrocuted, I’d take that in a heartbeat. Or imagine inheriting a sense that the brain will have a stroke in an hour. The body can sense the stroke coming on and tells the mind-body what’s about to happen through the sensation of fear. That would be amazing. Just enough time to get that mind-body to a hospital before ant damage takes place. Not only do I think that’s valuable, it’s an area I’m exploring and would like to develop. Fear comes in handy because it is a powerful motivator. If a rabid pit bull starts chasing you, the mind-body will go into fight or flight and run or fight up to it’s true potential. Related to this is intuition, yet intuition is much more subtle than fear. The mind-body often is not in touch with underlying emotions and intuition, so the mind-body often uses fear. If the mind won’t luste to underlying emotions and intuition, it only seems natural to use fear to get attention and get shit done. The problem is fear often gets distorted into bizarre thought stories like “I’m not smart enough. Other people don’t like me. I’ll never be loved. What if I fail and go hungry?”

From a brain-body perspective, the article raises awareness of conditioning. There is a conditioning component of the brain-body which influences the subjective experience of the mind. We have know this for decades. It is the classic “nature vs nurture” debate. Scientists agree that both nature and nurture contribute to the physiology and experience of a mind body. The classical framework separates nature and nurture into two separate categories. One’s genetics is nature and one’s external environment after birth is nurture. Yet as we look closer, these categories start to break down. Clearly, the development of a fetus is influenced by the placental environment before birth. Factors like the mother’s stress level and diet influence the physiology of the developing fetus. It gets even more bizarre.  The stress level of the mother alters the micro-biome in the gut - these microbes essentially get stressed out and alter brain development and activity. Crazy stuff. 

And it gets crazier. We are now discovering that input prior to pregnancy will alter development of future offspring. In particular, there are epigenetic changes that alter the physiology if a mind-body before it was even born. Before it was even conceived! This is aligned with the existential view that “you were never born”. Scientists are seeing this same truth, yet from a different viewpoint. It’s like seeing the Grand Canyon from two different views. At first, the views look very different - it looks like two totally different canyons. Yet over time, the mind realizes the two views are inter-related. 

So having a brain-body that is highly conditioned is both good and bad, depending on perspective. My brain-body has been highly conditioned and evolved for millions of years. It contains information, knowings and insights not only during my lifetime, but before I was even born. That is mind-boggling fascinating. Imagine digging in and exploring that. It would make an amazing movie of exploration and discovery. 

On the flip side, it sucks. Let’s be real. . . a lot of that brain-body conditioning is very unpleasant to a brain-body. From a personal viewpoint, who wants to experience conditioned anxiety and fear? Most of these anxieties and fears are irrational and don’t serve the body. Awareness of this irrationality is helpful, yet often insufficient. Ime, I became aware of the irrational basis of these fears, yet the impulses kept arising. Anxiety and fear impulses. I got to the point where I could just observe them without attachment/identification yet they kept arising. I knew something deeper was going on and I started exploring deeper. . . What I found is that the conditioning is much more intricate than I originally thought. 

I’m very interested in re-conditioning the mind-mind body. Re-wiring the brain and getting it in tune with emotions, physiology and it’s environment- inducing inter-personal relations. Yet again, let’s be real. It’s easy for my mind to go off into a hyper-groundless “la-la” zone or a hyper-grounded contacted/limited zone. It’s an interplay. Groundless grounding. My mind-body is not going to wake up a chicken tomorrow, regardless of how much visualization I do. Similarly, I am not going to wake up tomorrow speaking fluent Chinese. That stuff is fantastical distractions. On the other hand, the idea  that I’m a certain way due to conditioning and there is nothing to change that is too contracted and limited. The potential to re-condition the mind-body goes waaay beyond the standard belief structure. More and more revelations are being revealed. For example, scientists are figuring out the basic mechanics of how abuse/trauma alters epigenetic programming. They are trying to develop medicine to help reprogram the epigenetic pattern. Yet this is only one piece to the puzzle. There are other pieces. Psychedelics may help under certain conditions. Psychotherapy can be helpful. Yoga’ meditation, Shamanic Breathing and Reiki can be helpful to identify and release underlying blocks. 

There are lots of insights from others that are helpful. Yet one must also observe their own mind-body, observe and explore to reach the deepest levels and potential. Can others help you with this process? Yes. It is an extremely important component- others can help reveal stuff that the individual cannot. Yet, it’s an interplay and balance. Don’t get too dependent on the views/experience of others, yet don’t dismiss it either.

One must also observe their own beingness to reach depth. There are teachers and insights within your environment, yet also teachers and insights within you. They are extremely wise and profound. Imagine the wisdom of teachers with millions of years of experience conditioned into your brain-body. The brain-body has conditioning of anxiety and fear, yet this is just one aspect. It is much deeper and broader. 

[Aeris]

8 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@SQAAD Hmmm, that article referenced an experiment showing the inheritance of a fear response toward electrocution. To me, that sounds like a handy fear to have. Who wants to get electrocuted? If I was able to experience fear just before getting electrocuted, I’d take that in a heartbeat. Or imagine inheriting a sense that the brain will have a stroke in an hour. The body can sense the stroke coming on and tells the mind-body what’s about to happen through the sensation of fear. That would be amazing. Just enough time to get that mind-body to a hospital before ant damage takes place. Not only do I think that’s valuable, it’s an area I’m exploring and would like to develop. Fear comes in handy because it is a powerful motivator. If a rabid pit bull starts chasing you, the mind-body will go into fight or flight and run or fight up to it’s true potential. Related to this is intuition, yet intuition is much more subtle than fear. The mind-body often is not in touch with underlying emotions and intuition, so the mind-body often uses fear. If the mind won’t luste to underlying emotions and intuition, it only seems natural to use fear to get attention and get shit done. The problem is fear often gets distorted into bizarre thought stories like “I’m not smart enough. Other people don’t like me. I’ll never be loved. What if I fail and go hungry?”

From a brain-body perspective, the article raises awareness of conditioning. There is a conditioning component of the brain-body which influences the subjective experience of the mind. We have know this for decades. It is the classic “nature vs nurture” debate. Scientists agree that both nature and nurture contribute to the physiology and experience of a mind body. The classical framework separates nature and nurture into two separate categories. One’s genetics is nature and one’s external environment after birth is nurture. Yet as we look closer, these categories start to break down. Clearly, the development of a fetus is influenced by the placental environment before birth. Factors like the mother’s stress level and diet influence the physiology of the developing fetus. It gets even more bizarre.  The stress level of the mother alters the micro-biome in the gut - these microbes essentially get stressed out and alter brain development and activity. Crazy stuff. 

And it gets crazier. We are now discovering that input prior to pregnancy will alter development of future offspring. In particular, there are epigenetic changes that alter the physiology if a mind-body before it was even born. Before it was even conceived! This is aligned with the existential view that “you were never born”. Scientists are seeing this same truth, yet from a different viewpoint. It’s like seeing the Grand Canyon from two different views. At first, the views look very different - it looks like two totally different canyons. Yet over time, the mind realizes the two views are inter-related. 

So having a brain-body that is highly conditioned is both good and bad, depending on perspective. My brain-body has been highly conditioned and evolved for millions of years. It contains information, knowings and insights not only during my lifetime, but before I was even born. That is mind-boggling fascinating. Imagine digging in and exploring that. It would make an amazing movie of exploration and discovery. 

On the flip side, it sucks. Let’s be real. . . a lot of that brain-body conditioning is very unpleasant to a brain-body. From a personal viewpoint, who wants to experience conditioned anxiety and fear? Most of these anxieties and fears are irrational and don’t serve the body. Awareness of this irrationality is helpful, yet often I sufficient. Ime, I became aware of the irrational basis of these fears, yet the impulses kept arising. Anxiety and fear impulses. I got to the point where I could just observe them without attachment/identification yet they kept arising. I knew something deeper was going on and I started exploring deeper. . . What I found is that the conditioning is much more intricate than I originally thought. 

I’m very interested in re-conditioning the mind-mind body. Re-wiring the brain and getting it in tune with emotions, physiology and it’s environment- inducing inter-personal relations. Yet again, let’s be real. It’s easy for my mind to go off into a hyper-groundless “la-la” zone or a hyper-grounded contacted/limited zone. It’s an interplay. Groundless grounding. My mind-body is not going to wake up a chicken tomorrow, regardless of how much visualization I do. Similarly, I am not going to wake up tomorrow speaking fluent Chinese. That stuff is fantastical distractions. On the other hand, the idea  that I’m a certain way due to conditioning and there is nothing to change that is too contracted and limited. The potential to re-condition the mind-body goes waaay beyond the standard belief structure. More and more revelations are being revealed. For example, scientists are figuring out the basic mechanics of how abuse/trauma alters epigenetic programming. They are trying to develop medicine to help reprogram the epigenetic pattern. Yet this is only one piece to the puzzle. There are other pieces. Psychedelics may help under certain conditions. Psychotherapy can be helpful. Yoga’ meditation, Shamanic Breathing and Reiki can be helpful to identify and release underlying blocks. 

There are lots of insights from others that are helpful. Yet one must also observe their own mind-body, observe and explore to reach the deepest levels and potential. Can others help you with this process? Yes. It is an extremely important component- others can help reveal stuff that the individual cannot. Yet, it’s an interplay and balance. Don’t get too dependent on the views/experience of others, yet don’t dismiss it either.

One must also observe their own beingness to reach depth. There are teachers and insights within your environment, yet also teachers and insights within you. They are extremely wise and profound. Imagine the wisdom of teachers with millions of years of experience conditioned into your brain-body. The brain-body has conditioning of anxiety and fear, yet this is just one aspect. It is much deeper and broader. 

Do you still practice 'do nothing méditation' ? Did you find something in aside people purging their 'unreleased trauma' . Nice answer

[Enlightenment]

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Robi Steel said:

You can master your emotions fully and satisfying. Once you are fully awake tho, there really is no need for that, many masters like to stay grounded and enjoy fear or some anger here and there. It is human, it is not inherently bad, you learn to enjoy suffering along the way. Stop loving only the good stuff

Never heard of anybody enjoying fear. There are awakened people out there who are taking psychiatric medications because of fear and its consequences on mood, sleep etc.

I truly believe that we are shaped by our genetics to a very high degree 

[purerogue]

5 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

Never heard of anybody enjoying fear. There are awakened people out there who are taking psychiatric medications because of fear and its consequences on mood, sleep etc.

I truly believe that we are shaped by our genetics to a very high degree 

There are states where you can enjoy fear, or any "negative" emotion , I personally do not like some "positive" emotions, all emotions have effect on your perception of surroundings and I find them counterproductive,delusional. 

[Forestluv]

31 minutes ago, Aeris said:

Do you still practice 'do nothing méditation' ? Did you find something in aside people purging their 'unreleased trauma' . Nice answer

I do a form of “do nothing” mediation - yet it’s more like observing what arises without attachment/identification of a doer. 

For example, I may sit on my couch for an hour and just star and observe. Yet I don’t set a setting like “Ok, for the next hour, I am going to shift my orientation so I am doing nothing. I am going to light a candle, burn incense and sit on my cushion in a half-lotus position so I can enter a do-nothing mindset and start doing nothing”. . . That formal do-nothing practice was very helpful for a while. Yet the lines between “do nothing mediation” and  “do nothing non-mediation” started to blur and melt together. Yet occasionally I still fond it helpful to do a formal “do-nothing” seated meditation. . . Along these lines, when I was a novice I used to think thank that all of life was meditation. Formal mediation was so boring and uncomfortable. Why do that when I can be meditating while I was running or listening to music ? . What I found was that I was not at that depth level and I was avoiding formal meditation, well. . . to avoid stuff and I was not growing or having realizations that come from formal meditation. As well, I know there are greater depths of formal meditation my mind-body has not experienced. 

I don’t understand this question “ Did you find something in aside people purging their 'unreleased trauma'”. Could you rephrase it?

[Nahm]

@SQAAD The difference between a mouse and a human is infinite and hell-a-elusive.

[purerogue]

7 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I do a form of “do nothing” mediation - yet it’s more like observing what arises without attachment/identification of a doer. 

For example, I may sit on my couch for an hour and just star and observe. Yet I don’t set a setting like “Ok, for the next hour, I am going to shift my orientation so I am doing nothing. I am going to light a candle, burn incense and sit on my cushion in a half-lotus position so I can enter a do-nothing mindset and start doing nothing”. . . That formal do-nothing practice was very helpful for a while. Yet the lines between “do nothing mediation” and  “do nothing non-mediation” started to blur and melt together. Yet occasionally I still fond it helpful to do a formal “do-nothing” seated meditation. . . Along these lines, when I was a novice I used to think thank that all of life was meditation. Formal mediation was so boring and uncomfortable. Why do that when I can be meditating while I was running or listening to music ? . What I found was that I was not at that depth level and I was avoiding formal meditation, well. . . to avoid stuff and I was not growing or having realizations that come from formal meditation. As well, I know there are greater depths of formal meditation my mind-body has not experienced. 

I don’t understand this question “ Did you find something in aside people purging their 'unreleased trauma'”. Could you rephrase it?

Didn't you use sensory deprivation tank? 

[Forestluv]

19 minutes ago, purerogue said:

Didn't you use sensory deprivation tank? 

Ahhh, very nice. Yes I have. Insights into inputs prior to birth were revealed in a sensory deprivation tank and are integrated into the view presented above. 

My brain-body has reached deep relaxation in SD tanks. I’m feeling like I’m due for another float soon. 

[oMarcos]

It's called Psychogenealogy, it's also a great shadow work tool

Edited May 1, 2019 by oMarcos

[SQAAD]

@Serotoninluv 

Quote

On the flip side, it sucks. Let’s be real. . . a lot of that brain-body conditioning is very unpleasant to a brain-body. From a personal viewpoint, who wants to experience conditioned anxiety and fear? Most of these anxieties and fears are irrational and don’t serve the body. Awareness of this irrationality is helpful, yet often I sufficient. Ime, I became aware of the irrational basis of these fears, yet the impulses kept arising. Anxiety and fear impulses. I got to the point where I could just observe them without attachment/identification yet they kept arising. I knew something deeper was going on and I started exploring deeper. . . What I found is that the conditioning is much more intricate than I originally thought. 

 

So... we are doomed! 

Now i have to spend thousands of hours working to solve unwanted conditioning & i might not even be able to reverse most of it. There are no guarantees.

This is quite depressing but hey it's life.

Edited May 1, 2019 by SQAAD

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, SQAAD said:

@Serotoninluv 

So... we are doomed! 

Now i have to spend thousands of hours working to solve unwanted conditioning & i might not even be able to reverse most of it. There are no guarantees.

This is quite depressing but hey it's life.

Hmmm, that's not the conclusion I would make from it. I would look at it another way. . . More like exercise. Having a lifestyle with regular exercise is healthy (and likely also helps de-condition the mind). Exercise can become a lifestyle. People walk, hike, run, ski, play soccer, lift weights, ride a bicycle etc. It's not like they think "I have to get in exercise. I guess I should go for a bicycle ride so I don't turn into a fat slob". Rather, they just do it - like second nature. It's a beautiful day and we are on vacation, let's go for a hike! Exercise is a chore for some and a delight for others. Likewise, awareness of conditioned personality dynamics can be a chore or a delight. Once a mind gets the hang of observing itself, it becomes second nature. It's not like "I better go sit on a cushion and deconstruct these awful unconditioned psychological dynamics so I don't turn into a fearful loser my whole life". Rather, you just do it. During the day stuff arises and it's like "whoa, where did that come from? How does that dynamic work and how is it serving me? How interesting. Fascinating". 

[Nahm]

@SQAAD Hey, I just want to point out that starting with the SANS website reference, through the post, you’re picking & choosing and spinning a narrative. From emotional suppression you are experiencing overthinking and limited emotional connection, resulting in chronic fear which is causing you to see things in a overly limited way. You need less thinking, and more emotional release. Do this every way you can from meditation & writing about what comes up, to reiki, psychoanalysis, etc. Maybe start simply with googling how to relax and seeing what works for you. 

And develop tenacity. Like a boxer always gets up, you always notice when you left stomach breathing.  

[Forestluv]

@SQAAD I concur with what @Nahm wrote. 

I did not intend to suggest we are "doomed". I don't think we can do a complete reset by snapping our fingers. It takes some work to deconstruct and release  - yet it's not some insurmountable task like trying to hike Mt. Everest in your underwear while playing a kazoo. 

[SQAAD]

@Nahm True.Thank you.

@Serotoninluv To be honest after reading your 1st reply on this topic i got anxious and obsessional again because my mother indeed suffered a lot of stress when she was pregnant with me & apparently she got hit in the belly once aswell (while carrying me).

Now i am extremely anxious about how this event might have permanently affected/altered me in some way. I know it's irrational and stupid but still i worry about it. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by SQAAD